Where to put my last Skill Point?

I’m in the character creation and am about to start the game for the first time ever. I’m playing as a Knife Master Rogue, and have allocated the skill points that I feel would benefit me most. I now have one left, and I’m not sure where to put it.

I’d have put it into Stealth, but having read some stuff online it seems Stealth isn’t really that useful anyway, or is it? I could put it into Use Magic Device, but I wanted to be a purely melee based character who isn’t knowledgeable about the arcane arts, so using scrolls etc wouldn’t really go with the immersion I’m trying to create for this character.

That being said if there’s any good reason for putting it into either of those two things I’d love to know. I’ve attached a screenshot here so you can see where I’ve put my skill points so far, and where my last skill point will be best used. Perhaps even Knowledge or Lore?

Thank you.

Stealth is useful for various dialogue options popping up every now and then.

Otherwise, I’d opt for Use Magic Device. Plenty of companions are having high knowledge ranks. But that’s not the case for using magic devices.

Edit: Gah, hadn’t realized it was for Kingmaker.

Yeah it’s for Kingmaker, is there a different Pathfinder I’m not aware of haha?

On that note though, does your first suggestion still apply? Should I just pick Use Magic Device, even though I’m never gonna be using wands and stuff like that as a pure melee character?

There is. Or to be more precise: there will be. Wrath of the Righteous is in active beta development and sheduled for summer 2021. :slight_smile:

But yah, still would pick Stealth in case of Kingmaker. Some companions can be used for Stealth if you wish. But the only pure rogue will take a couple of acts to get.

Definitely Stealth, especially at the beginning when the rogue is more vulnerable and doesn’t have yet much gear to make those choices less impactful. It will help with sneak attacks too, at least for your first attack if you’re alone with an enemy.

Well from what I can see, I already have +5 on Stealth (due to Dexterity I’m guessing?), so is that not enough to help me at the beginning of the game? If I put a point into it, I get +9.

Worth noting is that wearing armor usually also comes with a penality to physical skills. Stealth included. A chainshirt reduces such skills by -2 for instance. So having ranks in Stealth would help even things out.

Thematically:
Use Magic Device means that you know how to trick wands and scrolls into working. You have no idea how magic works, but if you hold this stick, stand on one foot, then wiggle it like this… fireballs!

Mechanically:
In tabletop Pathfinder, Use Magic Device lets you trick magic items into thinking that you are something else which lets you use magic equipment that would be restricted to other classes/races/alignments
Unfortunately, In Kingmaker it just lets you use scrolls and wands.

Actual suggestion:
Both are good. And specifically for Rogues, they can get “Fast Stealth” which means that there is absolutely no downside to being in Stealth 100% of the time.

You need one character with good stealth to hide your camp in order to avoid ambushes when you rest.
You need just one character for this and some companions could also do this.

Use magic devices can be useful to buff your character with wands and scroll, especially for some spell which can’t normally be cast in other allies (like shield).

Like people said above, stealth is useful for not be focus in fights, to be used in conversation or to hide the camp.

So both are a good choice.

If you are still not sure, finish it with heads or tail :smile:

On the other Hand you coud also take away 2 points in Intelligence to increase another stat like Dex(if its not at Maximum) or Wisdom,which applys to Wil save and Perception or CHa too increase Persuasion.U will lose your last skill point, so either invest in stealth instead of Knowledge World or let your companions do the work.

If u stay rogue or multiclass into non-caster u dont need high Int

I always had troubles understanding the impact of the level in CHA/Use Magic Device and DEX/Trickery.

From 0 to 1, it is clear that you get the ability to use magic devices like wand and scrolls, or the ability to disarm traps, pick locks and pilfer, which at zero you just can’t. Do additional levels increase the cast level? Normally it’s either set by the scroll or, for some archetypes, the caster IIRC. Likewise for traps and locks, does Trickery help against difficulty checks?

The D20 system is all checks against Difficulty numbers.

To succeed at a task, you roll a d20 and add whatever the relevant bonus is -skill modifier, attack bonus, etc.

For a trap, you’d add your total Trickery bonus to the roll to see if you succeed against the difficulty number.

For Use Magic Device, each scroll or wand has a difficulty number dependent on the level of the spell it creates. So a higher Use Magic Device bonus makes you more likely to succeed at activating it. If you fail, the charge is spent with no effect.

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You must have put at least one point in this skill to use it at all.
The DC (difficulty class) for trickery (traps, locks) is given by the trap/lock.
The DC for UMD is given by the scroll/wand.
You roll: skill value + 1d20 and you have to roll the DC or higher to succeed.
The skill value is: points spend +2(if class skill) + stat bonus + other bonusses (bonusses of the same type do not stack)

You absolutely need one char with very high trickery value. There are tons of traps, and locks and you also meed this skill in several dialogues.
I think I never used UMD. I did not use that many scrolls and there was always someone who could use it. Scrolls have the lowest possible caster level and DC (unless you are a scroll savant). They can be useful, but do not expect a long duration or that they have an effect on the enemy if the require a saving throw to do something.

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(Sorry to the OP, who doesn’t want to use magic :wink: But that may help see the overall check mechanisms based on these skills.)

Thanks! For Trickery it’s pretty clear. And I understand UMD is actually another check.

I found several bits of info in the rulebook, it looks as if UMD is only necessary for classes that can’t cast spells and want to use a spell scroll or a magic wand. This would mean that

  • Use Magic Device is not necessary for spell casters (if the spell is in their domain),
  • Spellcraft is not necessary for other classes than spell casters.

The core rulebook explains this poorly as usual, so I may be wrong. And unfortunately they didn’t detail the scroll checks in either game of Pathfinder, so it’s not obvious to validate.

Here’s what I understood:

1 - Casting a scroll spell

a) With the spell ability or a caster class, casting a spell from a scroll include several steps

  • decipher the scroll: spellcraft check, DC 20 + spell level vs Spellcraft (INT)
  • activate the spell: provided the conditions are met: correct arcane/divine type, spell on class list, ability score high enough,
    • if the caster level >= spell level, activation without check
    • otherwise, caster level check: DC 1 + spell level vs Spellcraft (INT) (I think), and if that fails, a DC 5 vs WIS to avoid a scroll mishap (unwanted effect) and the destruction of the scroll.
  • effect: other checks such as spell resistance, saving throws and so on, depending on the spell. Those checks are normally performed by the targets.

If I understand correctly, the ability score is based on INT for wizard spells, WIS for divine spells, CHA for sorcerer and bard spells. It must be >= 10 + spell level.

b) Without the spell ability or a caster class, Use Magic Device (CHA) must be > 0, and

  • decipher the scroll: DC 25 + spell level vs Use Magic Device
  • emulate the ability score: the ability score used is INT for wizard spells, WIS for divine spells, CHA for sorcerer and bard spells,
    • if the ability score >= 10 + spell level, it is fine
    • if the ability score is not high enough, DC = 15 + spell level vs Use Magic Device

2 - Using a wand

Using a wand is easier,
a) If casting class: the caster must identify the spell and that’s all. This is a DC 15 + spell level vs Spellcraft (INT)
b) In other cases, Use Magic Device (CHA) must be > 0, and the caster must pass a DC 20 vs Use Magic Device

Am I the only one thinking this is overdone? I’m not even venturing into the Scribe Scroll action, for which I’m pretty sure most games including Pathfinder just bypass some of the checks.

There is no spellcraft skill in the computer game.
Some parts of it fall under arcane knowledge, such as identifying items.

In the computer game, you always know what scroll this is. Everyone who has this spell on the spell list of his class can use the scroll without problems. Only when the spell is not on the spell list of your class you need a UMD check to use the scroll. same for wands.

Edit: In NWN2 (DnD 3.5) you could use UMD to use items that are restricted by class, race or alignment.
In Kingmaker UMD is only used for scrolls and wands.

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