What would you say is the most fitting Mythic path for NE Character?

I plan on playing as a NE character but I am having a hard time deciding what the best fitting mythic path would be. So I decided to post and see what other people who are planning to play NE characters think would fit well with the alignment.

If you mind your body getting replaced by bones (Lich) or worms (Swarm) then go for Demon. Lich and Swarm are both casters, Demon is melee.

Swarm-That-Walks gets my vote. The Lich is a tad too disciplined and probably tends more towards Lawful Evil. And Demon typically is… well, Chaotic Evil. :demonboi: All three of them get spells.

That said, there is likely some sensible leerway in their alignment requirements. And there’s always Legend as well for those who don’t want any kinds of strings attached to them.

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I feel like swarm that walks would be the true Neutral Evil but that path feels like it might take away some of your characters personality. If you’re not up for that then Lich. Demon is Chaotic Evil and that hinted devil path (not confirmed) will be Lawful Evil.

Yeah, I share the same feeling about the paths which I originally planned to do Swarm-That-walks followed by Legend. However, in the recent Q & A while answering a question about changing Mythic paths. They called The-Swarm-That-Walks “the Ultimate Evil” which got me thinking I was wrong about it.

considering the whole hive-mind and consuming your soul I could definitely see your character losing personality. Unless there is some kind of crazy way we find to maintain our soul or at least mind. Makes me Wonder how Owlcat will handle that.

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Neutral Evil would most naturally fit Lich, because the Lich as per Paizo’s official(ly retconned) lore is Neutral Evil itself.

Swarm-That-Walks to my mind doesn’t really fit neutral evil at all, however, especially not after what the devs said during their Q&A last week, how the S-T-W were the path of “Ultimate Evil”… so between the “myriad of locusts”, “hive-mind” and “ultimate evil” aspects, I can’t see S-T-W being anything other than Chaotic Evil.

Edit: Forgot the Demon Path
Welp, the Demon can indeed pretty easily be seen as purely Chaotic Evil, especially with how the Owlcats introduced it on Kickstarter, speaking about its boundless demonic rage, which by its very nature isn’t very controlled and most assuredly not neutral, and so heavily leans towards Chaotic (see also Barbarians, also rather Chaotic ragers).

That said, the Demon especially might offer a fairly wide range of possible Evil-alignment variety, given that it is able to transform into several different types of demons; while the basic form might be the demonically raging melee thrasher, another form might (and probably will) be much more suited towards spellcasters, etc pp… so I don’t see why that variety shouldn’t also allow for a bit less Chaotic and a bit more Neutral Evil-ish playstyles.

As I said above, actually it isn’t… or rather it isn’t just that.
While we don’t specifically know all its available transformations, we can be plenty sure that there’d be some versions that will be more suited for casters as well, given that Owlcat has said they do not want your class to lock you out of Mythic Paths.

Only alignment will be able to block certain paths, but not your chosen class(es).

That’s ancient history, hrhr… as said above, Lich is actually officially fully Neutral Evil in the Paizo world of lore.

And besides, the most natural progression towards Lich clearly is a Sorcerer with Undead Bloodline, and when has any Sorcerer ever cared about discipline? >:]

I am not sure how you view a hive mind as chaotic or for that matter why you would put the ‘Ultimate Evil’ as chaotic, Pathfinder is fairly clear Daemons are worse then Demons (or Devils).

As for the question - most fitting mythic path will likely depend on how you envision NE and how you envison your character, you could go Legend with an eye towards being unwilling to sacrifice anything about yourself for any reason which could be viewed as fairly NE.

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One mind, a billion bodies — how is that not chaotic? =)
Especially when the being turning into a hive-minded creature all their life before had only ever had one mind and one body.

Well, maybe that’s just me, but I am convinced that Chaotic Evil is more Evil than Neutral, which is more Evil than Lawful.

Or in other terms, CE is worse than NE is worse than LE.

Sure they are all Evil, but whom would you rather encounter out on the road?

  • An LE character who ignores you as long as you don’t give him offense or break any of his, however tyrannical, laws
  • A NE character who’d ignore you as long as you didn’t pose a threat, were actively in his way or otherwise needed for his evil plans
  • A CE character who would torture and murder you, defile your corpse and possibly eat you (S-T-W) just as soon as look at you

Yes, they are all evil.
Yes, they could all kill you.

But between the three of them, the chances of survival for a random passer-by are much higher for 2 out of those 3 alignments, wouldn’t you say?

I mean… this is the very reason why in Tabletop, Chaotic Evil usually is banned as player alignment, especially because they would invariably have to turn into mass-murdering psychopaths to play their alignment correctly.

And as for the “Ultimate Evil” thing, that’s not me… that’s Owlcat themselves saying that in their game, S-T-W is the Ultimate Evil.

Going from the above, Ultimate Evil pretty much has to be the Chaotic one, the one utterly unfettered by morality, unchained, uncontrollable, not bound by any personal code, laws, or any modicum of consideration for anyone or -thing other than itself.

  • Chaotic Evil kills for fun, tortures for fun, to pass the time.
  • Neutral Evil kills when it is necessary for personal gain or in the pursuit of power, but not just for sport, that’d be a waste of time.
  • Lawful Evil only ever kills when it’s in accordance with the (quite possibly draconical) law.

And last but not least, it would also make sense in terms of game design, to have one each:

LE: Demon
NE: Lich
CE: Swarm

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Within Pathfinder you seem to be incorrect in viewing Chaotic Evil as worse then Lawful Evil or Neutral Evil - and Neutral Evil is seemingly from a game prespective the worse of the three.

Further on CE vs LE.
A CE cleric of Lamashtu that passes you on the street might attack, torture and kill you for fun … a LE cleric of Zon-Kuton might do it out of religious duty and may well be far far better at it.

Now you are free to think that Chaotic Evil is the evilest evil, but it does not seem supported by the text of Pathfinder sourcebooks - nor is it supported by simple analysis, to take you example:

Sure they are all Evil, but whom would you rather encounter out on the road?
An LE character who your face offends and who spends ten years altering the laws to arrange to kill you and everyone who looks like you in the most horrific manner possible.
A NE character who decides that your very existance is offensive and seeks to murder you and destroy your soul in the most efficient manner possible.
A CE character who would torture and murder you, defile your corpse and possibly eat you just as soon as look at you - but who may get distracted before they bother to act on any of that and just forget about you.

You can create hypotheticals for any to make them sound worse then a different hypothetical you create - but that doesn’t mean that they are in fact objectively worse.

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Indeed, it’s ancient history. And no need to thank me for the small edit. :wink:
Same is also true for the Dread Lich, Psychic Lich and the Forsaken Lich as well. None have to be Neutral Evil here. The Moss Lich however is quite different in that regard, given his planty-plant parts.

Owlcat has to tie that Path to a “main alignment” like the rest. And the most likely cantidate currently still is Lawful Evil. With the Swarm as Neutral Evil and Demon as chaotic incarnate. Although some of them will certainly enjoy more leerway than others do. Being “Ultimate” in anything usually also means being the “most limited” after all.

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Since we’re on the topic of helpful hints: it’s spelled “leeway”, not “leerway”… unless you were intentionally making a pun on leering every which way, in which case do carry on. :joy:

But indeed I stand corrected… weird though, as I was so convinced that Paizo had officially ruled the Lich to be NE when before it was officially LE… now I wonder how that has gotten so stuck in my head. :man_shrugging:

That much is certainly true, and as always it will ultimately come down to personal, subjective definitions between the players… but then there’s one giant elephant in the room:

Why is only Chaotic Evil usually banned from Tabletop/P’n’P groups, but Neutral Evil isn’t?
Going from your arguments, and apparently Paizo’s own sourcebook, Neutral Evil would be “the worst”, or purest form of Evil, so surely that should also be the most disruptive?

Not trying to prove any point, just genuinely interested in your take on that.

EDIT:
Sorry, OP, for kinda taking over your thread; wasnae intention’l!

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To OP’s question: I believe that the devs have said that you will have some wiggle room in your alignment, but that the decisions you need to make to commit to a certain Mythic Path will definitely push you towards a certain alignment. For example, you can make some Good or Neutral decisions as a Lich, but the key decisions that will make you a Lich and most of the content designed for a Lich will push you to make Evil decisions. So in theory you may be able to be NE with one of the more Neutral Mythic Paths, though there could be some challenge. Aeon and Trickster both seem to push you towards either Lawful Neutral or Chaotic Neutral, so they may be possible but you might be on the edge of changing alignment a lot.

If you want to go with Neutral Evil, the Legend seems likely to be an option since it seems to be a “reject Mythic power” route of some sort and may not require any alignment. Demon will push you towards Chaotic Evil, but you can probably find ways to stay in the Neutral Evil range. It’s not clear where Lich and Swarm-That-Walks fall on the Lawful-Neutral-Chaotic spectrum, but they are are definitely Evil and since Neutral Evil lets you make all kinds of decisions as long as you’re Evil, they should both also be options. Keep in mind that Swarm-That-Walks is a late-game and sort of secret Path that you won’t have access to at the start - you’ll need to start with Demon, Lich, Legend, or something else until you find the options that let you unlock Swarm-That-Walks (in theory - the devs have kept a lot of the details on how Swarm-That-Walks and Gold Dragon work secret).

I think this comes down to players rather then the setting (many DMs just ban Evil as a whole and a few ban CN also) - some players think that having a C or an E gives them a licence to be disruptive to the game.

However DMs normally have no issue with CE (or any other alignment) NPCs as they will serve a purpose in the story rather then actively trying to distrupt it and justify it on character alignment - a cunning scheming CE rogue who seeks to get rich at the expanse of a town (steal a dragon’s horde and leave evidence that it was the townsfolk so they can get away) is in most DMs minds likely a perfectly fine NPC (and one who doesn’t need to kill anyone they meet let alone everyone they meet).

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Demon is far from lawful evil. Considering the QA stream its looking like Lich:LE/NE Swarm:NE and Demon:CE

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Looks like I may have been way wrong about the Swarm. I had forgotten the developers said it would be pretty late in-game and that its also more of a secret. Since they called it the ultimate evil on the last Q & A its probably more CE or at least eviler than what I have in mind. I haven’t play pnp Pathfinder only some D & D back in the day so I only really know lich has a CE as well. Both Lich and S-T-W along with Deamon seem to take more than give power-wise which the way I plan to play my NE character would not be willing to pay that price. It sounds like I may be stuck sticking with Legend for first playthrough.

Also, I’ve gotten a lot of good replies Thanks for contributing.

I agree with most answers above. Swarm is most fitting for NE. Demons are mostly CE by their nature and Lichdom suggest discipline in immortality pursuit (closer to LE). Might be just my personal feeling, but TT fluff about becoming a swarm seems to be something of a shortcut when compared to more rewarding immortality forms.

Is it though? I’m far from an expert considering I haven’t played TT but what I found on the wiki doesn’t sound like a shortcut. I guess in a way it might but still sounds like something that’s a mere chance and something a NE character may not be willing to tempt. The wiki says

A worm that walks forms sometimes when an evil spellcasting creature is buried in earth infused by magic. The worms that feed on the corpse consume the spellcaster’s soul and gain a hive mind that retains the memories and magical abilities the corpse had in life.

Or is a worm that walks something different from a swarm that walks? My point is being a NE character or at least how I perceive it is self-serving in the path to gain power so I don’t think at least my NE character would be willing to tempt the chance or losing their life to gain power and especially their soul and mind.