This game has so many problems in balance/design

Let me list a few:

BIG ONES:

  • crusade unit balance. It is laugable. The initial army sizes are insanely small for no good reason. With ONLY 3-4 slots to work with, why would you EVER take 10 sorcerers or 4 mages you get? You cannot get more (I’m far into act 3, built every upgrade). Mages for example, use lighting, against which demons are immune. And demons are you main opponent. Useless. There is zero incentive to split troops, since you CAN’T. The slot limit is a crime.
    And even better example would be the first choice you have to make - upgrading Footmen.
    Regils suggestion makes perfect sense in RL, but not in the game. Shield bearers have no offense and no way to lock an enemy, so they are a waste, despite their tankiness. The enemy will just go around and attack your squishy units. Even if you were to give them the ability to threaten all sorounding squares and to Attack of Opportunity, their damage output is so low it wouldn’t matter. The ONLY time they can actually do their job is when there is a big obstacle on the map. And even that is a maybe - many demons can teleport.
    What about Champions? The best trained footmen, in full plate and with greatswords, but low in number? Sounds great on paper, but their AC and HP looks like typos. They are made of tissue paper.
    The sheer differences in values, the sheer insanity of them. And it’s similar with most units. One unit has 22 HP, other has 156HP (same tier).
    It’s like none of the developers bothered to test it or look it over. Who in their right mind approved this?

  • utter lack of helmets. Even basic ones. Seriously, add basic helmets to vendors. Add more helmets and buff them, because NO ONE will take +4 inititave on helmet over +4 to CHA/WIS/INT circlet.

  • armors that actually work and aren’t trash. AC is king. DEX is king. Armor is laughable, because it doesn’t ACTUALLY protect you when you get hit. This was always a problem with pathfinder and D&D - the AC system makes no damn sense for armor. Armor should give you AC (unless enchanted) - it should give you Damage Reduction (flat) or Damage Absorption/Resistance (percentage) or both.
    The max dexterity bonus should instead be a dex bonus penalty, not a hard cap.

  • severe lack of specific weapons/armor. Just add a blacksmith that can forge what we need for a hefty price. Custom ordered weapons/armor.

  • class balance. All over the place. Far too many classes for no good reason.

  • unfinished. So many quests/characters seem like cut content.

4 Likes

I can mostly agree with you. The game is fun because the base (pathfinder + crpg genre) works great, but it seems most of the decisions made by owlcat are questionable at best. I felt many times like the devs are against the player. They have problems dealing with the difference between difficulty and frustration (Which is a very thin line separating them and it’s very hard to deal with it, but in this game rather than trying to figure out how to soften the frustration, they encorauge it on multiple occasions).

I had fun playing the game. I was even encouraged to play it twice. But there’s a lot of bad design patterns spread around every corner. Sum up all the bugs and I can perfectly understand why some people rage quit.

2 Likes

I think some bad design decisions stem from bugs and some bugs stem from bad design decisions. For example encounters appear to be designed around bonuses to AC stacking, which should not take place. Or fights become much easier when you apply persistent spells with Selective spell metamagic feat - and enemies keep absolutely doing that, even though this move is illegal. Spell effects stacking is bug according to P&P rules, but I cannot imagine completing the game without it on higher difficulty levels. Someone actually designed the battles around these exploits so instead of exploits they become de facto rules of this game.

4 Likes

Armor does help if you are “hit”. A “hit” in this system is defined as a damaging blow. Armor helps by reducing the odds you take damage. It’s not always that the enemy literally misses you altogether. Sometimes they just strike where you have a steel plate and it bounces off.

3 Likes

Heh, in my last play through I got a unit of 3 bronze dragons and figured they would be effective. Nope. One-shot by any unit that attacked them. How/where do you even recruit a useful number of dragons? So I moved them off to the edge of the map with all of the other trash units the game gives.

2 Likes

As for armour, I like the system in BG, where armour granted additional AC bonus to certain types of physical damage and often an AC penalty to another. These bonuses would need to be more than ±2 in this game, though.

The amount of classes is good imo but with the rest i agree. But this is also a problem of the table top games. At the end you have to become a god so you have to increse your attributes like a freak. At the end you get DEX 40 and STR 40 totally stupid. Prefer in this case BG. Where you can not increase your attributes to infinity and items which increase your attributes were very rare.

Would prefer a more down to earth game and pen and paper system.

2 Likes

I don’t know man, I don’t want to come off as dismissing your experience here, but some of what you’re saying I think you just need to look at from a different perspective. I’ve never played pnp, so from my view I have no comparison and am just looking at it from the crpg.

No question the ruleset and learning curve is aggressive to say the least, but to be fair, that IS the design choice and attraction to the IP. Its for people who like having tons of classes and subtypes and rules and buffs and spells and finding the right combination of interacting that just makes the party work the way you want it too. Learning and mastering the ruleset is the biggest gameplay here. Other rpgs like DOS2 or even pillars do a much better job making “tactics” a larger role, this game is just more about setting up your pieces and less about mechanically controlling them.

Its totally fair to not like that as a design choice the same way people don’t like dark souls for being tuned the way it is, but dark souls is for people who like dark souls - who enjoy the mechanics as they are. I think you have to see this game the same way.

As for the details, I am not some super-gamer or mix-maxer or anything fancy. I’m on Act V on core and have been tanking without any Dex-focused tanks, crane style, or viv dips. Just buffs and crowd control. My animal companion with heavy barding has 60ac when buffed, nearly untouchable all of ACT 4 (to AC).

All I’m saying is, it really is doable if you like the game enough to enjoy setting up the buffs and using the abilities alltogether. The gameplay IS all that figuring and combining stuff (at least on core). If you’re not into it I think that’s fair, but it is doable and it isn’t unbalanced (like dex being mandatory) if you like the game enough to get into its systems. I don’t mean that in a gut good way, I really don’t, I just think you should look at it from a different angle.

5 Likes

Thanks for taking the time to write. Said it better than I could.

Don’t get judging something you don’t understand yet. It’s great once you get into it. More than enough tools to do whatever you want and stats are in fact secondary to abilities and items for that. My stats are 30 max and I’m doing great.

I agree, I prefer how ot was in Baldur’s Gate too. Having descriptions like “potion of giant” strength helped with imaging what the ability scores were supposed to represent in a fantasy world. For me something of immersion is lost in WotR, though it was that way even in PK. Crusade makes it even worse, imo. My mage general was shooting spells for over 100k damage. What are those values even supposed to represent in the context of how mages work in this setting?

1 Like

No Clue how you did that. I just got beat up by some Incubus Creature which just ran through 5 CCs and had 6 Attacks per Round whilst being pretty much untouchable. It’s just the Dice that decides if you win. What else can one do when all Spells are utilized… You will win at some point… because of Luck.

Which one and where?

I really do think this summarizes it nicely. I can understand complaints about the game, but a good portion of those are complaints about the core ethos of the game itself - reward for systems mastery - which for me is why I keep playing.

1 Like

No. You can improve your Dice by using spells. You can also use spells to stop foes. ice prison (lvl 5 mage spell) is really usefull. You can freeze foes. Mass ice prison (lvl. 9 mage spell) even works for the end boss if you choose the right feats. There are spells to mind control foes such that they start fighting against their companions. You have to try and error. There are many spells to inrease your ac etc.

But i agree that a normal fighter without buffs is useless and a char without armor can reach a higher ac than a normal fighter and this is completly stupid! Furthermore buffing all the time is boring. They sould implement a mechanic to automate the buffing before a fight.

For the higher difficulties you have to spawn legions of skeletons and monster to shild you cause they one hit you.

So for me Core is still ok but unfair is stupid cause you have to min/max and multiclass like a freak.

2 Likes

Deleted - accidentally posted on wrong forum, sorry about that!

A normal Fighter without buffs isn’t useless. The point of the class is it’s baseline effectiveness and resilience without any buffs at all for situations like ambushes and where rest opportunities are sparse.

No you have several clues.

Start with the easier ones and go from there.

When I say

Do you think I have Spells left? Why would >all< lead you to that belief?

What Spells? How would you know what I have? How do you know I didn’t already do that?
You don’t even know what Level I am on. You don’t know what Spells I have!

I told you that I used all my Arsenal and that he does not care about CC.
It took 5-7 attempts to kill him and not once he fell in a Pit, Slipped on Oil, got entangled in Veins.
5 Spells used 5-7 times = over 25 chances for him to be CCed
Not one trigger!
He buffed himself up with 1min Buffs (or slightly above 1min). So my best chance was to CC him, that I did know.
If we explore the Encounter further we see that my Group was not able the even shoot at him before he buffed. There was a line of sight, but everyone refused to shoot and ran into my own CC. They could barely even shoot 5m in front of them. There have been 4 more Mobs from which mostly 2 got CCed and the Boss came after them, was big and so could attack from the second line which I could not access because of my own CC. However, he killed mostly everyone in <1 Round anyways.

In the End, I won. Was it a cool fight? No.
Was it fair? Hell No!
Have there been great Spells involved? Buff a lot Punch a lot… Nope!

1 Like

Because we’re playing the same game. Stop making excuses and improve your play. You’re stuck on low level spells instead of developing your character.

Don’t do that.

Was it Shivial the Pain Connoisseur :joy:

1 Like