Things we Know about The Sequel to Pathfinder: Kingmaker

Yep. If I remember correctly, it’s a module of the prologue chapter that Chris Avalone wrote.

It’s not the prologue. At least nothing I have seen indicates it is.

Wow, sorry I am word badly (this is what I get from playing an 8 int, 8 wis Bloodrager).

Epilogue. Like Witchwar Legacy was for Reign of Winter.

Okay. I wanna think out loud for a bit:
It’s pretty much an open secret that Owlcat Games are working on Pathfinder 2 (I could go into why, but there are so many indications it’s really not in question anymore).
We know that they don’t have to upgrade to the new second edition rules (and probably won’t considering they already have the engine, the rules aren’t complete yet, and there’s no compelling need to develop a new engine yet).
We know that numerous Owlcats are Playing Grippli in Tabletop Tuesdays (what the hell that means I don’t know beyond Grippli are awesome).
We know that various Devs with control over the choice of AP HATE cosmic horror, and don’t like railroads.
We also know that the Studio Head LOVES romances. Enough to get Chris Avellone to participate in a game with Romances.
We know that since tabletop tuesdays started back up in January, it is likely a fully published AP that was either finished or started before that date (i.e. Not Tyrant’s grasp and probably not Return of the Runelords).
We know that it was really important to Owlcat in the Kingmaker selection process to have a “Hook” that differentiated their game from all the other Isometric CRPGs out there. That Hook ended up being the Kingdom Management System. That System is Valaddin’s Baby, so it seems likely the next choice will have a similar Hook.

So, what does all this mean in practical terms?

  1. A new Pathfinder AP game is being worked on. And work started probably back in January when people started playing #TabletopTuesdays again.

  2. It took half a year to go from absolute nothing to a vertical slice in Kingmaker’s dev cycle. And another half a year to go from there to Kickstarter readiness. And then around half a year to get from there to Alpha 1. and 10 months in alpha to get to Beta. and 2 months to go from Beta to Full game. It seems likely, given that timeline, that we will get a Kickstarter this year.

  3. It also seems likely that the next AP will not be cosmic Horror focused. So not Strange Aeons. It might be an AP with elements of Cosmic Horror (like Runelords), but it’s Probably also not Carrion Crown, which has a whole Module of Cosmic Horror.

  4. The next Game will likely have a “Hook” like the kingdom management system. This means that the APs with “Hooks” are much more likely choices.

  5. It is probably not an underwater AP for the same reason that flight wasn’t implemented in Kingmaker. So NOT Ruins of Azlant.

  6. It’s probably an AP that shares at least some elements with Kingmaker so as to save on Art. So probably not Legacy of Fire or Mummy’s mask, or Serpent’s Skull.

  7. It’s not Kingmaker.

  8. APs where Hooks either exist or can be easily added are as follows:
    Jade Regent (AP# 9, The Caravan system for this AP works pretty well, but the AP stars a character from Rise of the Runelords, the PC isn’t the main character, and it’s sort of rail-roady)
    Skull And Shackles (AP #10, Ship management and later on, pirate fleet management. This AP is also wildly popular. But there’s some underwater adventuring, and it’s kind of similar to Pillars of Eternity Deadfire. and not a lot of shared assets. On the other hand, Owlcat has really great Water Tech.)
    Shattered Star (AP#11, Uses Pathfinder Society as a framing device for a Fame System. But Fame systems aren’t management driven. The AP is a Sequel to Runelords. It’s pretty dungeon-crawling focused, and it presupposes that 4 other APs have already happened.)
    Wrath of the Righteous (AP #13, Army Management and Mythic rules. But Mythic Rules require extensive adjustments to the engine since they’re designed to Break rules. But, includes Mass Combat which Owlcat seemed super excited about during Kingmaker’s Kickstarter. This is however an alignment restricted AP, so that’s tricky.).
    Iron Gods (AP #15, no overall systems, but the blend of tech and High fantasy could serve as a Hook, and definitely includes sci-fi tech and androids, which could also act as a hook. With that said, I get the feeling that Certain Lead Devs aren’t big fans of mixing Sci-Fi and Fantasy)
    Hell’s Rebels (AP #17, Includes Rebellion Management Rules, and troop fights. Does have some water levels, but they’re easily adapted into something else, or cut out. Owlcat could also implement a Base Management system like in Dungeon Keeper).
    Ironfang Invasion (AP #20, Has a Militia Management system, and similar themes of "Taking back/forming a kingdom. also a LOT of Kingmaker Art Assets could be reused).

  9. There are some APs that have features that could make them attractive or have a strong following that do not have management-style hooks. I’m going through them below:
    Rise of the Runelords (AP #1, Wildly popular, enough that Paizo rereleased it in the Pathfinder Ruleset. But pretty linear in a lot of places.)
    Curse of the Crimson Throne (AP #2 Also popular enough to be rereleased. also has a very strong story and flavorful tone with a lot of potential for city exploration).
    Council of Thieves (AP #5, has a number of mazes and places where a procedural generated dungeon design would fit. It’s also an easy mark for adaptation of Hell’s Rebel’s Rebellion system)
    Mummy’s Mask (AP #14, No overall management system, but has an Exploration overland map similar to Kingmaker’s).

So who do I think the top 5 Contenders are?

  1. Ironfang Invasion - Probably the easiest to make, a lot of art assets can be ported over and a lot of shared monsters, and the management systems are similar.
  2. Hell’s Rebels - Very Different flavor, but strong management style hook and a very Popular AP.
  3. Rise of the Runelords - Probably the most popular AP.
  4. Wrath of the Righteous - The most Ambitious of the choices, but also the most Epic. Goes to 20th level, and Involves Mass Combat and a very epic story.
  5. Curse of the Crimson Throne - Extremely popular, very fun characters, a strong flavor, and a good story.

Cool Analysis Strategemini. I hope you’re right (and I hope they’re faster than you think :stuck_out_tongue: )

As always, impressive thinking process and analysis.

However, if the devs think a little bit like I do, if Ironfang Invasion looks too much like kingmaker, they shouldn’t do it as an immediate sequel. A lot of hard fans, including me, would be very happy with something akin to kingmaker, however game critics might say that if a studio releases 2 games in a similar vein too quickly, they might lack imagination.

That said, maybe the final product of Ironfang invasion would in reality feel really different from kingmaker, but if the devs follow my kind of thinking, we might see ironfang as a 3rd sequel rather than a 2nd sequel.

While I’d love a Wrath of the Righteous themed game, I agree that the restrictive alignment is too big of a deal for a 2nd sequel. Unless they somehow find a way to adapt the AP to allow all kind of alignments.

According to your analysis, Hell’s rebels seems like a very strong choice for a 2nd sequel. A game with flavor that differs a lot from kingmaker semms like a winning bet in my perspective.

That said, if Paizo plans to compel Owlcat to switch to 2nd edition when they work on a 3rd pathfinder game release, they should do ironfang invasion as a 2nd sequel so they could profit from their current engine as much as possible before having to work on another engine.

I’ll start of by saying that i’m a complete noob when it comes to Pathfinder, and this game is the first time i experienced this setting.

After reading the description of the APs on the wiki the one that looks the most interesting to me from your list is Ironfang Invasion. It might be a bit similiar to Kingmaker, but it’s unique enough imo and the story looks very fun. While reading, Tyrant’s Graps also caught my eye.

What i would not want to see are APs that force you to be a specific alignment. I loved Pathfinder: Kingmaker for the amount of freedom i’m given in my choices and the consequences of it.

Still, after Kingmaker i’m going to buy every single Owlcat game if this is the quality i can expect from them. Also, plz give Hellknights in the next game D:

That’s upsetting to hear, I’ve been wanting them to do an Iron Gods AP since playing Kingmaker. I wanted to make an Android Psychic or a Half-Orc Technomancer.

Hell´s Rebels is my favourite AP, i like it even more than Kingmaker. I´m hoping it´ll be the next Owlcat game.

But Iron Gods would be my 2nd choice. I´d make a Chainsaw wielder! :slight_smile:

Pursuant to new info, the level cap for under the stolen lands is 20.

Party cap (despite screenshots) is officially 6 for Beneath the Stolen Lands

Edit: Added a lot of new beneath the stolen lands info.

A dev let slip that UI usability improvements (especially for the Kingdom) will be available in Enhanced Edition. Also, they are adapting UI for the console version.

So, key notes. There will be an Enhanced Edition. And console version will have new UI.

When you say party cap, are you referring to number of party members or level?

Edit: nevermind, read the first post!

I just hope we who allready have game and DLC’s can get new Enchanted Edition free, it would make me feel a bit blue to pay around 85€ for new edition :smiley:

Edit: oh, and hopefully what extras we have (like kickstart backer bonuses) it would be really nice to keep them allso…

Hey-hey-hey, everyone! I’m finally back from the 2-week vacation in Kazakhstan. Did I miss anything important? :smiley:

Well, someone let spill an Enhanced Edition with a new UI was coming out on a CohhCarnage stream?

Can you say anything about that?


Free update to the PC version with the console UI updates, separate edition that you have to pay for again, or separate edition that current owners get for free?

You already know which option will come with major backlash :wink:

I hope that the agreement with the publisher lets you just go indie for your next game(s).

Well if we are getting a enhanced edition of kingmaker that would explain why owlcat has been asking us to do there surveys i hope we get more religions to pick from like the green faith and to be able to pick a deity for our none divine characters

Ooh… can’t wait for the Enhanced Edition! Wonder what sort of goodies we’ll get from there?
Quests/items/companion interaction?

I’m feeling a little sad if ‘beneath the stolen lands’ would be the last dlc we’ll get in the Stolen Lands… Guess I just got way too attached to the ‘pixel friends’, setting and story ^^’

However, in the next pathfinder game you’re working on, what’s the possibility of us being able to visit Ustalav and especialy Lepidstadt University XD ? (sorry if my alchemist’s tendency is showing =p… tag line “fresh grad out to change the world”, LoL)
Inspectors, horror hunters, vampires and werewolves. What’s not to like? XD (for me at least)

Honestly I’m just soooooo curious right now. At the very least, can we know where we might be heading next?

That’s gonna be a question for the devs, but I think the university shows up in 3 APs? Carrion Crown, Strange Aeons, and Tyrant’s Grasp (And I’m not sure on that last one). I don’t think any of them are the next AP (I know Tyrant’s Grasp isn’t). So chances don’t look great.

As far as stuff in the Enhanced edition? I’ve been told It’ll contain a new UI, Bugfixes, neat new stuff, and some QoL improvements that are things the devs wanted to add or change but couldn’t justify the cost of for a mere patch. Stuff like the exit to map from the throne room change.

I think there might be some new characters? But they’re probably NPCs and not party members. There’s a ton of new items in Under the Stolen Lands (procedurally generated dungeons means procedurally generated loot placement). But I don’t know about the EE.

My info on the EE is limited now so most of this is conjecture.