Suggestion on character design

Hi

I have a short suggestion regarding the character design for the NPC of WotR.

Make them flexible. Please. (E.g. Do XX really need to be a cleric? Can´t we let the player choose between a cleric, warpriest or paladin? Does he really need to have lets say STR 12 and INT 16? why dont let the player customizing him/her a little?

I mean for instance, Valerie … well being fair I don’t like the character and the backstory, at all. But anyway, I don’t like that she can only be a fighter. From “my party point of view” I would be more than happy to play her as a paladin. But so far I can´t use her as paladin. This is because a) the game wont let you making her a paladin b) does not fit her story. Tristan and Harrim, … lets say that they ar the reason why speech of hate exists xD (seriously i dont like them at all and this make no “cleric-tank/combat cleric viable”:

And this frustrates me, to the point that when 2,0 is released I will quit the game and the specialization mod does not work. And for me being able to use nice characters and the extra gameplay I get from than mod outweighs everything.

So my humble proposal is to a) when you design a character personality and backstory, let some room for a player to “optimize/personalize” character. For instance, don’t make history like the one from Valery that limits what can valery be, (does octavia need to be a wizards, why not a sorcerer?). And let players optimizing a little bit the character.

Indeed I like some builds - Octavia is quite good idea (arcane trickster build) and the idea of Valery as a tank is also quite good idea i wouldn´t had thought myself. So its fine to present some builds, but let us optimizing them.

Most of companions are already written with class in mind, and are already in alpha.
Ember is Witch that almost burned at stake, but got saved, also has witch familiar.
Regill is Hellknight 100% and cannot be written to be anything else, his recruitment is based on him being in charge of squad of hellknights.
Seelah is iconic paladin and even Owlcat cannot rewrite her.
Sosiel is also NPC from module and as such is already written.
Possible companion, Greybor is Assassin for hire and as such he has Sneak attack class(probably Slayer)+Assassin class.
Woljif is 100% Eldritch Scroundel and he brings it up in conversation.
I think some of Camellia’s quests will include spirits.
Daeran has his Oracle curse/gift hinted at with his backstory.

I think only Lann and Arue do not have class writen into their backstory.

Your best bet is next game, but I do not like your idea. I like it when you have to work with what you have at hand.
And this can also limit what you can write about character. You have to avoid writing anything related to
their class(such as seeing spirits, bloodline, pure violence barbarian vs disciplined fighter).
I actualy like Valerie’s limitations, you cannot make her into paladin for 2 reasons Atheism and LN aligment.

And finaly.
Just use mercenaries.

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The issue is that If i use mercenaries I will lose the history of the character, that sometimes is cool. I mean otherwise they can just remove NPC and make an icewind dale. But I want to play pathfinder, I just want a little bit of modificability on the characters

It can be easily creative with the writting, valerie can restore the faith in other god, Octavia could be a sorcerer, tristan could be for instance be a herald caller.

Sometimes may be ok the “handle what you have in hands”. But this works if the character design is good, really Kingmaker characters are quite bad.

Nope you just have very bad taste and I feel sorry for you

Regarding characters in WotR:

Eldritch scoundrel --> I personally dislike it quite a lot, i prefer magus+rogue/arcane trickster or rogue/magus/arcane trickster. I mean, this is an example on how to give flexibility without changing character.

Greybor might be ok. But the issue is that we have already a rogue NPC.

Hellknight is ok, but if there is a paladin i will probably go with Seelah. So as happen with the eldritch and the slayer, there is some kind of overlap.

Ember, well if its a witch and you can modify to your preferences sounds like an ok NPC.

I have no experience with oracles, but if - unlike ember - has its main stuff fixed sounds like i am not going to use her/him unless i do really like it.

Lets discuss the game and not my tastes, or who is sorry about the personality of whom.

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Oracle is full spontaneous divine caster (like Sorcerer, but with Cleric spell list), it has curse that gives negatives and benefits, those benefits become more powerful as you level up.
Daeran has Powerless Prophecy curse.
Ember is archetype witch that also has curse/gift part of oracle. She has Blackened curse(burned hands), which gives -4 on weapon attack rolls but she adds some fire spells to her spell list.

This is your own personal opinion that I do not share. You do not like Kingmaker’s character designs, but that does not mean that they are “quite bad”.

The characters as stands is fine. What I’m more concerned about is how weak your starting party really is. After you collect the initial 7 party members you are left with no real magic support or healing. The witch class is a weak way to provide healing while the tiefling is a poor excuse for magic support. The party lacks support and if you stop to think about it, it lacks fighters if your main char trys to fill the support gap. So breaking down the char’s as a whole shows the apparent weakness. You have a Paladin with limited healing, you have a witch with limited magic and healing, a spirit hunter(shaman) which makes a poor front line fighter which you have to play it as, an eldritch scoundrel who cant wear armor but is set up to be a duel weapon fighter, zen archer which in my opinion is the best of the starting npc line up and an Oracle which I’m not familiar with. So if you play a fighter class, your weak on support, if you play a support class your weak with fighters. There is no real balance for start of the game. Which makes playing harder difficultly extremely challenging.

He cannot wear armour, but can cast Mage Armor in general, get an item (Ring, I think) to improve it, a Mystic Feat to improve it further after Chapter 1, also cast Shield for the harder fights, Mirror Image (not always useful against Demons, true). Since he’s not a tank, he should wait a few seconds before getting into the fights, once all enemies are locked onto your tanks (Seelah and Camellia in my playthroughs).
On my first playthrough, he was often killed or badly damaged, but on the next two, he was OK more often than my two tanks.

The lack of Arcane support is pretty grim. What level does Woljif start at? Considering just shifting his progression into Alchemist and calling it a day.

That’s the exact point, yes you can use mage armor, but mage armor does not stop the constant use of the cultists negative energy spells or inflict harm which widdles down your front line, and woljif by proximity. I throughly enjoy the character so far in the story that’s not an issue. But I have attempted at trying the 2 harder difficulties past normal, and he is just a liability by auto progression of his lvls. You only get so much gold from loot (10% of actual value) and ressing that char on a constant bases will cost you valuable items. Camellia herself is technically not a front line npc shes a light fighter. With only a rapier and buckler for proficiency makes her a weak dmg dealer. Which becomes a problem in the harder difficulties as well. I just think that an additional starting character is kinda needed to really help balance and possibly give players a better more diverse line up. In king maker you were given choices for all the standard party needs. You had the barbarian:Amiri for fighting, a cleric:harrim(a fighting cleric at that), a fighter class:Valerie, solid bard:linzi for support. Which allowed the main player to choose more freely on classes. So far with our current line up, your hard pressed. Either you fill the gap with arcane, or a front line fighter. I havent made it far into the game since I’ve spent more time finding every way possible to break the beginning chapter with bugs. (Found several unique ones and reported)

I was not contradicting your general point, most of us agree on those. I was merely pointng out the possibility of Mage armor replacing armor. Normal or magical armor (except maybe some special armor ability) don’t protect against negative energy spells either., by the way.
As for Camelia, once you give her Piranha strike (I think that’s the name, the Power Attack equivalent of Dextrous fighters) and some Agile Rapier, she’ll deal nearly as much damage as Seelah, and she has easily at least the same AC, or even better than Seelah. She’s been a good Tank in all my playthroughs.

More generally, I think Owlcat have deliberately chosen to give us less straightforward NPCs this time around, to allow us to explore more possibilities, to push us outside our usual comfort zone. And I think it’s a great idea. I’m not comfortable with all characters, I think some are almost useless, others I just don’t like, I think there is a balance problem compared to my usual ways of playing (I’m not very good at optimizing a character, much less a whole party), but I have managed to finish the Alpha in a slightly-tweaked Core difficulty (second hardest) without too much hurdle compared to Kingmaker.
To conclude, I think it’s not that bad, despite all those balancing problems.

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Would have to agree with you and yes its pahrana strike, a very nice feat, I’ve been playing only doing the auto leveling. I have not delved into actually choosing the npc leveling paths(I know I would make the npc better, Shame atm I cant have complete control of leveling from lvl2 onward, I’ve also refrained from choosing my own leveling mainly due to me wanting to see how the dev’s chose the paths for the npcs) I do like that we will have unusual npcs for an unusual chapter of this story, and will thoroughly enjoy the story. Just hope we all can help flesh out these starting chars with the dev’s before the games release. I want more pathfinder adventures to come. :slight_smile:

@jontrifol How would you imagine your proposal being implemented? Something like the Pillars of Eternity 2 system—where the character is given a choice between two similar classes? For example, Wolfjiff would have a choice between Eldritch Scoundrel or Thug (or something would like that)?

I’m surprised you gave her Piranha strike because she’s a 3/4 BAB class and because she’ll never be able to access sneak attack die without gimping her casting. I just stacked her with AC.

I hadn’t considered your second point, but now that you mention it, Owlcat does seem to have focused on hybrid characters more in this game and with the exception of the cleric, there are no overlapping classes from KM.

Rogues and rogue-based classes have been powercreeped by other classes and, imho, are always a liability class that is chosen for RP reasons or for tradition.

Eldritch Scoundrel, IMO, is even worse because it violates one of the core rules of Pathfinder: specialize, specialize, specialize. Melee positioning for sneak attack die involves all the risks of a rogue, but less upside because fewer sneak die. Ranged blasting and buffing resolves this, but then you have fewer sneak attack die than an arcane trickster or rogue archer and fewer spells than a wizard/trickster and lower DC.

I’m starting an evil play through and will try him this time around, but I suspect his melee positioning, no reach, and low hit die will leave him quite vulnerable to AOE splash damage.

And why does he have double slice with 10 strength!!!

Concerning your last point, the latest Kickstarter update had an Excel table. It mentioned they they have 2 more companions to reveal, one of whom is intelligence based. That almost certainly means Arcanist or wizard, but it might be a sword saint I suppose.

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@Raikan yes they have said that, but I believe you wont encounter them until after you defeat the invasion of the city and start commanding the army. I have an ideal that the str/DeX fighter will be the assassin you met at the tower who killed the cultist. For the int character, I hope they just decide to give us a simple mage. Dont care for another speciality class, already have enough of them as is. But my thoughts on eldritch scoundrel is plan and simple bad. It honestly is a bad starting class that I feel was a lazy attempt to give pathfinder players more content.(paizo cash grab) and I place no blame on owlcat for implementing it into the game. The auto leveling choices that is chosen for that character is just pure bad, I’ve had it lvled up to 7 and at that point he really doesnt get any better. Feats are wasted on two handed fighting when they should have been geared for ranged attacks, and my personal thoughts that I have not tried yet (because as I stated before,I’ve been more focused on trying to break the game through bug finding) is he needs some sort of fighter level just to gain armor/weapon proficiency. After that one level, I think he can continue on as an eldritch scoundrel. If they would just give the class itself light armor/weapon proficiency then it would make the character very well suited for the route they chose for woljif, and he could be a very good second line fighter. As far as his spell lists goes. Meh, just meh. I’d rather see dim door, invisibility, or other “rogue” enhancing spells.

hate to play devils advocate but the reason i dont use mercs is 2 fold
1.) i like the party banter which i wont get as much of if i use mercs
2.) they are too damn expensive later in the game when i finally have idea of what i need.

Yes exactly like that, or for instance let retraining NPC and let the player choosing one option.

I do agree with eldritch scoundrel, specially when there are some “rogue tricks” that also gives you spells. IMHO, if you go rogue you need to go full sneak attack, otherwise there is simply don´t play a rogue. The fun part of playing a rogue, is knowing that you are a glass cannon.

In fact, I have stopped a gameplay where i was using a rogue/magus/arcane trickster. I am pretty sure that this is 100% more fun than an eldritch scoundrel. I mean you have two attacks per round, one of them a ranged touch attack that deal sneak attack damage. But what I like from the character, it has full sneak attack damage. and a little bit of magic not to make my gameplay boring.

The main issue with the rogues is the level 12 power to get a -2 to strenght to an enemy to whom you deal sneak attack damage, a little bit to OP IMHO,