RTWP vs TB

Greetings,

I feel that this is one of the most polarising issues of the game so far and thus deserves it’s own thread so that players can comment on this and so that our voice can be heard on this issue.

I will repost what I wrote down on the kickstarter comments:

Greetings,

I have pledged for this project and this is the first time I ever pledge on kickstarter. The second I read about this I was sold. I love kingmaker, I love pathfinder, and I just want to see a video game done by clever people that renders that spirit of adventure and exploring.
That said, I do not think I would have pledged if I had known that the game was RTWP (Real time with pause) because to me that just removes the entirety of the strategical aspect that I love so much about pathfinder.

I feel that RTWP transforms a game and a system into a clickity fest of the least effort rather than having each fight be a carefully thought out strategical debate that really immerses you into this.

To this day, my favorite adaptation of a D&D setting was TOEE, and that game had no story, complicated quests that made no sense, and lacked a general narrative track. Imagine if they had the storytelling dreamteam that this venture has back then? It would have changed the genre in its entirety!

So I don’t know about the others who support the Turn Based intiative, and I don’t know if it’s even possible for the devs to insert this in, but I think everyone would be hapy if there was a TB and a RTWP mode in this game (Not a pause at end of turn, it’s not the same and is note ven remotely close), so that both sides of this argument could be happy? I would gladly upgrade my pledge from 55$ to 5000$ just to make that happen!!!

I would take Turn Based over RTWP any day of the week, but I remember talk about there being some sort of IP issue with TB. Maybe because of ToEE? Agree completely about ToEE, both the negatives and positives. The TB system would work even better with Pathfinder than with DnD3.5…

Look guys, I hate to be reason for disappointment, but this point has been discussed to death. You’re more than welcome to share your feelings on the subject, but turn-based combat is definitely not going to happen. There will be an optional auto-pause feature after every action, but there will be no real turn-based combat.

I personally think that yes, it is in most senses turn based combat if we can pause after our companion + PC every action (and when initiative roll is made and first person in our paty have option to try and do something).

I mean that IS how turn based things are supposed to work anyway. When DM/GM is computer it would be bit silly to have pause after every action “his” NPC’s, monsters and so on do.

Bonus if we get option to “wait for our move untill enemy is moved first or turn is ending”. It all can be done easily with automatic pause I think.

I guess we might get even “pause game when some effect end” (most usefull when spellkind of effect you are using end) so if we have some items or unlimited zero level spells (somekind of light come mind first) we can easily just re-cost it when need to.

After all when we play P&P we do not have second timer giving us info when 6 second is gone or so…

I realise it has been discussed, although I fail to see the IP problem, if turn based games could be IP then I guess Wizards should try to sue square for the FF series.

I have yet to find however a single thread that encompasses these discussions in the goal of having that thread be accessible to the developpers. I want to believe that if enough of us voice our concerns for this we will perhaps be heard and maybe something can be done about it.

I’ve waited years to see that perfect Isometric RPG game be made and this has so many of the right spots, it just needs to have a TB option to be perfect IMHO, so I won’t give up on trying to make that happen, even agaisn’t impossible odds.

NwN and BG series proved that RTWP is a 100% viable solution for these kinds of games, and this type of combat haven’t spoiled those game for me in the slightest. TB is also nice, as was shown by Divinity Original Sin. But not imperative to make a great game.

So, in the end, i see no reason to start bickering over completely remaking combat. Especially with advanced auto-pause setting for those crazy(in the good sense of this word, mind you) fans of “tactical combat”. If the devs have already decided on RTWP, no amount of forum threads will change it. Deal with it.

Even with all the autopause settings, it would not be the same because turns happen simultaneously. So while your wizard is going through the animation to cast that fireball, your hasted warrior is running towards the goblins and will then take the fireball even though when you had initially cast it it was all clear to go. Not to mention that you usually either have the choice of turning AI on and have your whole team behave like a bunch of fucking imbeciles or turn it off and have most of your characters lose a turn now and then because you didn,t give them something specific to do and they’re not repeating the previous option.

Turn based offers clear precise control over the battlefield since each person acts on its own turn and it creates its own inherent strategy. Action economy becomes much more important, battlefield position becomes crucial, the focus is to optimise those two things rather than to kill the ennemy as fast as possible. It is the very essence of the Pathfinder gaming system.

And it is unfortunately lost in a RTWP, no manner how many autopauses you put in.

While I agree with your second paragraph conclusion, I will still try to make it happen, no matter how hopeless it is ^^

And Bg and NwN were fine games, but they suffer a lot from the adaptation of TB P&P to RTWP action rpg games. If i wanted to, say, make my iconic wizard build into NwN it would not work, because everything works differently. I would have to make a new wizard build. Probably one that focuses on blasting because control is not as efficient when your whole team and the other guys teams moves at the same time your animation effect goes off.

No. Please believe me when I say no. This is not going to happen and it has absolutely nothing to do with the developers hearing or not hearing anyone. This was brought up in both AMAs, on Kickstarter, during our Stream, has been discussed internally by the devs, we’ve heard each and every argument about it. It’s not going to happen. It’s not considered. And it’s not something we can simply add in afterwards, out of the kindness of our hearts. The entire combat system is built upon RTWP and it’s here to stay.

Can you sum up the reasoning behind it because honestly that sounds short sighted considering the strong support for TB there is?

I know you’re a community manager and it must be annoying to see it pop up every time, but most of us didn’t have access to those things and AFAIK they’re not stored online so I can’t listen to them.

If they are stored online, can you link it please?

I appreciate your determination, i really do, since the goal of the said determination is, as you think, more depth to the game. I agree and disagree at the same time.

While the issues you pointed on are real, they work for enemies too. I can remember more times than i can actually count, when i turned Horror, Hold Person and Web type of mass CC spells from 6-man(e.g. all party) to 1 man disabler by controlling the character who was targeted by said spell. Sometimes i even managed(when Haste was on) to get close enough to enemies so they were affected too. So, yes, RTWP system closes some doors… but opens another. It’s just a matter of preference.

Don’t worry, it’s perfectly fine to ask and I don’t think you’re being annoying at all. With that said, I don’t think there is an official statement beyond, “We talked about it a lot and decided to go with real-time with pause”. The decision was not made lightly, but that’s just what it is. And has been since day one. It’s been in the FAQ on Kickstarter, creative director Alexander Mishulin officially stated it in our AMA session, you could see the realtime combat during our stream - it’s been stated very clearly from day one.
So once again, you’re welcome to discuss the benefits of a turn-based system over RTWP and share with members of the community why you would prefer it that way, but please understand that the decision has already been made, it’s pretty much set in stone, combat happens in real-time. We’re a small indie-studio, there are only so many resources, the team had to chose one option. They chose RTwP. Please don’t shoot the messenger.

Personally I’m glad they went with RTwP. I just don’t enjoy TB as much. I was never able to really get into Divine Divinity or Tides of Numenera as much as I would have otherwise simply because they were TB. To each his own I guess.

Having played BG, NWN and ToEE, I have to say I personally enjoyed more TB combat. But that is because I love strategy a lot (great fan of Civilization). That said, I can see why the RTwP, the game plays much more fluid and you do not require deep knowledge of the system. This last two reasons makes it better for most of the public and specially for casual gamers, which usually is were the money lays in the end for most videogames.

Nevertheless BG and NWN played well. In the end these are RPGs trying to guide you through some story with some action included. I will not consider them strategy games, while ToEE, that is more an strategy game than a story based RPG.

In the end, if advanced auto-pausing (with plenty of configuration) is delivered, we can have a half-decent strategy experience. Things will not work as we are used, but just perhaps more realistically. We will have to get better and find new strategies for our well-known game.

Well, if the goal was to stay as true to the source as possible, the TB combat was, obviously, the way to go.
I aslo believe that chess played with RTwP instead of TB, won’t be chess anymore, as it will be closer to football than to the original game.

While the provided links state the decision is already made, there is no reasoning given behind it. (I have not watched the stream though, maybe it’s there.) And although I’m content with this decision and backed the game knowing full well about real-time combat, I still would like to speculate about the reasons.

One can say it’s in line with the Infinity Engine classics.
But cynic in me says it’s due to new generation of players just find TB games slow and boring.
And devs naturally want to endorse playstyle preferable by majority of their target auditory.

Just look how many people want to have an option to play the game without companions - effectively turning combat into non-stop diablo-style click-fest. POE is a good example, as it not only allowed such a playstyle, but even somewhat encouraged it via steam achievements.

As stated before, I would have preferred TB, but with the pausing I can probably still help the NPCs a bit. I simply dont like controlling a large group of characters at the same time. If they have decent AI (knowing not to run over all the traps to get to the enemy (I’m looking at you NWN, this went for the enemies as well) it could work well.

KotOR has the pause after actions system IIRC, and it worked well. I took a while to get back into it everytime, but it worked.

Side Note: I forgot ToEE existed! That was also done pretty well (combat wise)

i intensely dislike RTWP, but it is what it is and hopefully it is done well enough that it doesn’t matter

The only time when I actually like TB is on handheld consoles with small screen. Such as old Final Fantasy titles or Breath of Fire. But on PC? Clearly RTwP hands down! Heck, I even play Arcanum in Real Time because of my dislike of Turn Based combat in computer games. And that should say something. :wink:

So, for me, Pathfinder: Kingmaker is actually so very interesting precisely because it features said combat style. It just has the right amount of action and tactical thinking thrown into it. TB on the other hand feels more like reliving the classical duels between European nobles, or staged actors in an opera for that matter. :stuck_out_tongue:

To me the system matters less than the execution. Lionheart: Legacy of the Crusader’s RTWP combat was terrible and detracted from what could have been otherwise a very good game. On the other hand, I’ll take RTWP any day over the garbage turn-based combat of games like Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor. I lost 30 minutes of my life waiting for skeletons to cross the battlefield before I realized it wasn’t worth my time.

Edit - Overall, though, I agree with Kamigoroshi.

I’ve enjoyed both Turn-based and RTwP. Final Fantasy Tactics and Tactics Advanced, were great, so was Disgaea (until I got sucked into the item world for days and lost all track of the story).

But RTwP (and without pause) can be great too. I mean, the Diablo series are foundational as Real Time games that give you tons of abilities you can use. And Neverwinter Nights 2 and Tyranny handled the the genre well. I really can’t heap enough praise on KotOR (another RTwP game), or the Mass Effect series, and who can forget Ice Wind Dale or Dragon Age: Origins?

In the transition to a computer game, some things get changed about the system. Real Time with pause is a lot quicker, so I don’t mind at all.