Rogue/Ranger - advice needed

Dual wielding if possible

What do you think of this settup?
I’m think of going espionage expert/thug
how would you build this idea?

Rogue was already very disadvantaged versus vivisectionist and now in WotR it’s even worst because of mythic weapon finesse that make the class a very bad choice overall.

I hate the thug archetype, running after monsters and breaking formation is awful.

That being said, i still like 19 ranger / 1 rogue

For a two weapon i will personally just go with something like

Str 18-19
Dex 14 or 15 Dex depending on the combat style chosen
Con 12
Int 7-10
Wis 14
Cha 7-10

For the feats its easy… all two weapon feats, focus perception, animal bond, outflank, combat reflex, accomplished sneak attacker…

There are a few inherent weaknesses with the 2-weapon style: lower attack bonus on your attacks and stat splitting between dexterity and strength. To compensate for the former, you’ll usually want a full BAB class (ie not rogue). To compensate for the latter, you’ll usually want a class that can’t take the two-weapon frets without being required to invest in dexterity (ranger/slayer). Slayer is optimal because you’ll gain some sneak attack, be able to take the two-weapon feet’s without meeting the dexterity requirements, and still maintain a full BAB. As a plus, you won’t need to split stats with wisdom, either.

Some people might argue that your overall damage and utility will be higher by taking a vivisectionist with two weapon feats. This trades your full BAB for 3/4 BAB, but gains more sneak attack dice and some useful buffs.

I think this is probably incorrect, however. You lose BAB, which means your 3rd hit onwards will be very hard to hit, you’ll have to stat split more with intelligence, have worse weapon selection and won’t gain damage scaling from all the dexterity you’re buying for the two weapon feats. I can’t remember whether this can be fixed with a few levels of rogue to get the dexterity to damage bonus. Instead, I think the unarmed, 1 level monk dip, feral mutagen build is superior because you can just stack strength, will have far more attacks early game, and each will be at your full BAB. It trails off late game, however, and has lower armor class than the two-weapon build, especially if that one uses shield bash.

I agree with Raikan, its better to go full BAB when dual wielding, with slayer being the optimal choice if you want to rely on sneak attacks.

I forgot to add—clearly I enjoy min-maxing. RPers, please disregard my abusive and inauthentic approach to the game.

that summarize rogue is more like a useless class? also rogue are fairly squishy as well as once you sneaked attack and revealed yourself, you have no means of hide in shadows again. wondering if greater invisibility helps? also rogue do not have access to mirror image too. low BAB and the need to rely on consumables? i think the only thing great about rogue is just 4 level dips for the debilitating injury?

Yup, Rogues are screwed once again. That used to be the case, and Paizo partially fixed that with the Unchained Rogue, which added Dex-to-damage, Debilitating Injury, Sneak attacks to undead and Constructs, etc., but since they kept on giving Rogues abilities to other classes who already had other stuff, well, Rogues keep sinking lower and lower.

  • Dex-to-damage can be obtained by some Feats (someweapons only), and now Mystic Feats
  • Skill points are less useful in the video game, and the Compact system further reduces the differences between classes.
  • Trapfinding, for some reason, does not add half the Rogue’s level to Trickery
  • Sneak attacks are available to Slayers, albeit at a slower rate, and to Vivisectionists, who have a lot of other interesting stuff for them (better saves for both, spells and Mutagens for Vivi, or full BAB, Studied Target, combat style and more HP for the other…).

They should improve the Mythic abilities for Rogues, try to find something that only Rogues could get an advantage of.

Personally, I will continue to play Rogues anyway, but I know I get the low end of the bargain.

Like most games, there is (and in my opinion should be) power creep over time. Rogues are one of the oldest, most baseline classes. Once upon a time, when people older than me played 1st ed DND, the standard party was fighter, rogue, wizard and cleric. As the post above points out, they’ve more or less been eclipsed by other classes. Frankly, I think the problem originates from an ill defined and nebulous class concept that focuses a bit more on personality and style than on mechanics. The same problem more or less affects the fighter class to some degree. While that can and oftentimes is terrific in PNP, where RP and imagination make a huge difference, it doesn’t translate as well into the more rigid rules required for computer games. Fixing the issue would require the introduction of new game systems to make rogues worthwhile, but that’s more of a 3-5th game issue.

True enough. I have indeed never felt Rogues really underpowered in my RP-heavy PnP tables. Mainly because even when we fight, we don’t compare ourselves, unless there is a huge discrepancy, we collaborate and play our characters.

But when you compare mechanically, the difference is felt quite hard.

is it bound by the ruleset and hence owlcat won’t be fixing rogue? couldn’t they fix their low BAB if you choose to spend more on rogue levels? or even give them the ability to hide in shadow or greater invisibility?

We already have hide… better this than D&D 3.0/3.5 rules.

Obviously, rogue could be improved, but if I were managing development of WOTR, class balancing would be beyond the scope of game 2 for a couple of reasons.

First, implementation of the game system usually occurs before balancing classes, and they are still implementing archetypes and classes and spells, etc. Also, they are still implementing systems, ie camera rotation, and development process to prevent issues that happened in PFKM (mainly, bug testing).

Second, balancing is a lower priority in single player games where competitive equity doesn’t exist. If rogue is a dumpster fire, people can always play another class, etc.

That said, I don’t think tinkering with BAB is the right approach, though, because we effectively have that class already (slayer) and because stat adjustments don’t add interesting mechanics or flavor to the game, even though they are a quick, low-cost, low development hours fix.

Longer term, I’d prefer implementation of additional game systems that make sense in a computer game but might not in PNP. Specifically, lock picking could become a mini game (like decking in a shadow run) where rogues had major advantages. Put some of the best gear behind those locks and now you want (and feel rewarded for having) a rogue. Similarly, we could make rogues a real burst damage class with abilities like a teleport and leaves the character stealthed and makes attacks in the next xxx seconds activate sneak attack and maybe give crit bonuses. They then serve as a quick, mobile caster assassin. And if the environment became manipulated, ie push a boulder to fall on enemies, cut the rope to a chandelier, this mobility and stealth would help them to set up and during encounters. I also think traps could be introduced as a pre-combat mechanic, ie rogue lays trap and then kites mobs into traps, which could have effects similar to CC spells or AOR spells. Finally, rogues could have real economy value, if gold and loot were made much more scarce and a rogue allowed you to harvest more gold from corpses. But this would require a major rework of the economy to introduce gold, scroll and item scarcity. Finally, rogues could be the debuffer or poisoner class. Typically casters don’t want to use debuffs because their value fades when the target dies whereas a buff will persist much longer and have a similar effect. Rogues could have debuffs that can be constantly applied—which they do already to some degree, but these aren’t the primary focus. I’m sure there are other ideas that are consistent with class identity, both passive (ie the economy skills, the lockpicking) and active (debugging, traps, teleport assassination). But all of these involve new game systems and would therefore be more interesting that BAB adjustments, but for that reason, they also require much more work and are likely for later games that expand (not implement) the PF systems.

Note: I’m assuming that there aren’t any
contractual issues that prevent Owlcat changing classes beyond what Paizo says. There very well might be because, if I recall correctly, Owlcat spoke with Paizo before adding Ember’s stigmatized witch archetype. That might be a courtesy or a contractual requirement under the IP license.

Balancing is very important. Most people wont know if a class is terrible if they pick it and then are stuck with it. Just imagine one of the mythic classes being terrible or another beeing completly broken. That would be absolutly horrible

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Singleplayer game.
One option is to accept it’s dumpster fire and play despite it being dumpster fire or enjoying the game from “this is true challenge” point of view
or
use a mod
or
create rogueX/ranger4 or rogueY/rangerX or rogue/fighter or whatever multiclass rocks your boat and pretending it’s rogue and ignore other classes rogue dips its toes.

you could also bitch or try to optimize your build, but…

Are you actualy salty because I think a singlleplayer game definetly needs to be balanced? I always play on core(or hard in kingmaker) and know what im doing. But new players dont. Saying you can use mods becasuse a game has flaws is just stupid. Its the devs job not mine to balance stuff. This is a general statement, nothing to do with this rogue descussion. I think that standart classes arent too broken and rogue is fine. As long as the mythic are kind of balanced everything is fine for me. But I guess you and some others dont care about it all

But for example: the last chapter of kingmaker was terrible. It ruined an absolutly amazing game for a lot of people and thats to a huge part due to terrible balancing (yes in a singleplayer game!). The house at the end of time was just terrible combat wise

But this discussion has nothing to do with this thread anyways

Fixing the Rogue should have been Paizo’s job, not Owlcat. The only thing that Owlcat are responsible for concerning the Rogue are :

  • changing Trapfinding to remove the bonus to Trickery (Disable Device in PnP), so they should begin there. I mean, they left it for Clever Explorer (Archaeologist), why remove it for the Rogue ?
  • reducing the importance of skills, but that’s due to playing in a video game, it’s not their fault. Maybe they could compensate by introducing the advanced skill system of Unchained, and leaving it unique to Rogues as in PnP, but with the Mystic abilities, they already have something like that for the Trickster, and anybody can choose the Trickster, so it won’t be unique to Rogues, once again.

Maybe reintroducing some other abilities to the class, like take 10 (Skill Mastery is normally an advanced rogue talent but is not in the game), even though I think that the take 10 and take 20 rules should be available for everyone as in PnP. Maybe allowing them only for the Rogue could compensate the loss in other domains without changing the whole class balance in the game. Not sure it would be enough to give the Rogue some love, but it would be a start.

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Balancing isn’t unimportant, but it’s far less important in a single player game where humans don’t compete. I agree w/ that startovers are a problem, but can be more easily address by allowing a character to respec their main character (as a mod did). It’s a quicker, faster solution to the start-over problem and far easier than a class rebalancing pass.

sorry for confusion. We got stealth, single entry, while in 3.0 and 3.5 D&D rules we needed both hide and walk in shadows to successfully stealth.

nothing more horrible than plain boredom where everything is equally bland and not interesting. when a player invested time on a build, he or she must be rewarded for making that decision. i wanted to play as the best tank and god forbids balance and no you will be equal to any other dimwit…

this is no multiplayer game and f balance. there will always be an edge when comparing builds. but i concur… every mythic classes should be equally good but unless the player chose to gimp him or herself.