[Proposal] Allow NON-full-casters to combine their spellbook with the Mythic Paths

Hello all,

Id like to propose NON-full casters to be allowed to add their spellbook to the Mythic Paths just like full casters are able to.

In my opinion, since the system currently disallows to do this, it makes Classes that have a non-full casting progress less appealing.

Of course there is the Abundant Casting Mythic Feat and with 2 spellbooks you get 2x as many additional spell slots however I think that Mythic Feat / Ability is too powerful to begin with and might end up being nerfed. Either by only adding the slots to 1 spellbook (selectable) or adding less slots.

I think if the option were added to combine spellbooks instead of taking a Mythic spellbook standalone, it would greatly benefit the Classes without 9th level spells.

It would also make some Mythic Paths more accessible whichs Mythic spellbook uses a caster stat that is very low due to the Class having a different stat. If these Classes could combine their spellbook as an option, they could use their classes casting stat and have a better access to spells.

Below is a table I have modified with extra rows and columns. Please note that level means character level + Mythic Tier. The 10th level spell slots are MY GUESS. Left is full caster, right is 6th level caster.

As you can see, Ive added 7th and 8th level spells to the non-full caster (right table). Since there would still be NO access to 9th level spells, a full caster would still have more spells over this when selecting the Mythic spellbook as standalone.

Here is an empty version.

Sincerely.

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Doesn’t Abundant Casting just double the number of targets to a spell in RAW? That seems like a strange alteration for the game.

If I understand this correctly, you’re saying that a partial caster should be able to earn 10th level spells like a full caster?

Would this create the same problem that you’re trying to solve? You’re concerned that partial casters will be unappealing, but under your proposed system, wouldn’t full casters be unappealing? Why would someone play a full caster when they could get the same level of spells as a partial caster, but suffer from a lower BAB and not have the extra abilities that a partial caster has (bard song, heavy armor for some magi, summon of monster summoner, etc.). Maybe I’m misunderstanding the proposal?

Nope, she says that full casters (lv9 spells) get lv10 spells when they merge their spell book with the mystic spell book while 2/3 casters (lv6 spells) get spells up to lv8 when they merge their spell books with the mystic spell book.

I am not sure how this could be done in the game because mystic levels are not lv21-30 but a system parallel to normal level ups.

I misread the chart. Same problem, isn’t it? If a 2/3 caster gets lvl 9, then lvl 10 spells would have to be game breaking to, for example, make up for a higher BAB and a +5 competence bonus from bard song. And if lvl 10 spells are that strong…won’t they trivialize the game?

RAW Mythic system allows you to augment existing spells to be more powerful. The level 10 spell system seems to be an alternate to that where it is just has a list of exceptionally powerful spells.

That being said, there is so little information of what that system looks like, that I don’t know that charts can be practically made or tweaks be practically discussed at this point. To my previous point; Are we sure that Abundant Casting has been changed to double all spell casting, and that it is a definite and not just a test?

Note; Also, I missed that the charts went up to level 30, which just isn’t compatible with Pathfinder, so maybe this is a discussion using 3.5 information.

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Currently all we can see are wizard/sorceror (Lich) and cleric/oracle (Angel) all caster up to 9’th spells…
But sooo many other path will have spellbooks like Azata and the bard. The bard is a partialcaster or the golddragon and (maybe) paladin. I was under the assumption that was planned anyway with the corresponding class. Am I wrong?

Or are you asking to do it to ALL classes not only the one the path is based on?

In the OP I specified what table is for full casters and what for 6th level casters:

And no, I didnt say a 6th level caster should get 10th level spells. I would never suggest such an idiotic proposal as that would make ALL full casters moot.

Did you read the OP ? Like at all ? I didnt state 6th level casters should get 9th level spells and also explained why.

Please read the OP before stating things I never said nor would ever say as fact.

This is how these Feats are currently working:

Abundant Casting (Prerequisites: none)
You have learned of a way to increase the number of spells you can cast per day. Benefit: You can cast four more spells per day of 1st, 2nd and 3rd levels each.

Abundant Casting, Improved (Prerequisites: Abundant Casting)
You have studied a way to increase the number of spells you can cast per day. Benefit: You can cast four more spells per day of 4th, 5th and 6th levels each.

Abundant Casting, Greater (Prerequisites: Abundant Casting, Improved)
You have mastered a way to increase the number of spells you can cast per day. Benefit: You can cast four more spells per day of 7th, 8th and 9th levels each.

Actually, since there are 10th level spells and you get them only by adding your full caster to your Mythic Path such a system is already in place.

Essentially for full casters there are Levels 21-30 already. I made a guess, on which level and how many 10th level spells these casters get. But both Caster Level and Spells Known extends beyond level 20 for full casters already.

My proposal would add an option for NON-full casters to follow a similar progression although since they cast 6th level spells, they wouldnt get 9th or 10th level spells but 7th and 8th level spells. Plus Caster Level 30 eventually, just like the full caster.

No, this system wasnt planned for 6th level casters. Only full casters can choose to combine their spellbook with the Mythic Paths spellbook with all the benefits this brings, E.g. Caster Level 30 for Spell Penetration, numeric variables like Damage, Duration etc. at Caster Level 30 and so on.

6th Level caster are forced to pick the Mythic Paths spellbook as a standalone including the casting stat likely being different than their 6th level caster Class casting stat with the drawbacks that entails, E.g. Caster Level 20 for Spell Penetration with BOTH spellbooks, numeric variables like Damage, Duration etc. at Caster Level 20 and so on.

The only bonus of picking a spellbook as a standalone is you get twices as many spells and Abundant Casting adds +4 spells per level to BOTH spellbooks. SInce that is very much OP I thing that Feat is in for some hefty nerf.

Regardless of all this its just an option Im proposing. A lot of 6th level caster classes still have a good spell selection but if their caster level is forced at 20 instead of 30 they would have problems penetrating spells.

And if their chosen Mythic Path has a casting stat that was a dump stat during character creation and for a reason, these players might feel penalized for picking the ‘wrong’ Mythic Path, potentially leading to some frustration.

For instance If I play as an Elven Alchemist with high INT and choose Azata and lets pretent CHA is the Azata standalone spellbooks casting stat. Now how happy would I be when I look at the Azata spellbook and find out I can cast ZERO spells since I dumped CHA to get extra INT ? Likely not so happy. Items would help only to some degree.

If however I could combine those 2 and have INT be the casting stat Id be extra happy for the extra Azata themed spells, more spell slots, higher spell levels and caster levels. Still no 9th or 10th level spells but I can throw Bombs and do additional stuff that full casters cannot.

If I understand it right, OP wants to merge lich’s and bard’s spellbook for example.
All Mythic paths will have spells.
But it seems every Mythic will be able to merge spellbook with 1 or 2 classes. For example Azata will be able to merge spellbook with bard only(also maybe with alchemist or magus, to get 2 classes for all mythics) to get 7th level spells, Angel with cleric and oracle, etc.
But if you choose for example Azata+Fighter, then that combination will have only standalone spellbook, and it will gain only up to 6th lvl spells.

That entirely depends on what spell levels the Azata spellbook has. If it has 9th level spells your fighter can now cast 9th level spells. If you were a Bard youd have 6th level spellbook and 9th level spellbook but since the 9th level spellbook is superior, choosing a Class unable to cast magic might be the better choice.

This is not how its planned. Mythic Paths allow you to combine their spellbook with the Mythic Path if youre a full caster like a Sorcerer.

For instance the Bard / Azata would NOT be able to combine the spellbooks while a Sorcerer / Azata would be. The option to combine spellbooks is currently only allowed for ANY full caster like Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid, Arcanist etc.

100% correct. As an option. Youd add the Lich spells to your Bard spellbook but use CHA instead of INT. A Bard that has 7 INT, because its not his main caster stat, and is not able to combine his spellbook with the Lichs would have the INT based Lich spellbook and able to cast ZERO spells. It would be a ‘wrong’ choice.

There is however a drawback to this. The standalone INT-based Lich spellbook goes to 9th level spells at caster level 20 while the combined Bard / Lich CHA-based spellbook would only go to 8th level spells, as per my proposal, but cast at caster level 30 instead than 20. Still, Im sure of, it would be an option many would like to have.

Youd be a Bard-y Lich instead of a Sorcerer-y Lich. Currently your a Bard + Lich-noid (at best) while if youre a Sorcerer your basically a LICH-Lich.

Compared to a Fighter / Lich and Sorcerer / Lich, the Bard / Lich is the worst option as the Bard forfeits some combat for spellcasting ability compared to a Fighter / Lich and forfeits full spellcasting of a Sorcerer / Lich for a bit of combat but his spellbook will always be worse to the Sorcerer / Lich ones and his fighting cababilities will always be worse to the Fighter / Lich ones so hes worse than both and in (almost) all regards.

Sorry I remembered AMA wrong.
Azata will should have access to 7th level spells.( I thought it was talking about merged spellbook with bard, mixed it with information about Azata’s dragon that should have bard spellbook)

You’re kind of prickly…you do realize that those charts aren’t entirely visible on an iPhone, and the relevant paragraph about 7th/8th, but not 9th, appears after the charts… Sorry that two screens of unreadable charts caused me to tune out and miss the important paragraph buried in them.

Maybe your initial post could have been written more clearly like this:

I propose that 2/3rd casters with Mythic levels gain access to 8th level spells.

Isn’t that much better?

In any event, it still raises the same problem I identified. I suspect that partial casters would become the go-to class for blaster mages that rely upon to-hit die and tricksters.

Wow that would suck yes. The question remains why even call corresponding classes to the Pathes then? It Might make sense with wizard/lich and cleric/angel sure.

But why even tell us a class the path is based on then? So that we can imagine somehow similar powers and not be totally clueless? That would literally the only reason. I could not see for what and especially WHY we need to know what the path is based on, apart from the two already stacking. So wierd.

That is NOT at all what I was proposing. You didnt read the OP. Fine. But then dont pretend Im to blame for your inability to read the OP.

FYI: I proposed to add the option for 6th level casters to combine their spellbook with their chosen Mythic Paths spellbook just like full casters can.

The tables show a guess on how it works for full casters and another guess, how it might work for 6th level casters.

WotR wont be released on IPhones. I use a PC and post content with a PC in mind. If you use a lackluster device that has drawbacks than Im not the one to blame for it. I dont even have an IPhone and even if I knew that I had to post pictures with specific pixel numbers, I woundnt care.

And please stop stating things I never said.

Accessibility. If a player doesnt know the system and plays a Wizard then picks Angel which makes him unable to cast Angels spells cause he had to pick the spellbook standalone and his WIS stat is 7 then that causes a LOT of frustration.

The choice to allow full casters to combine spellbooks was a very good choice. However, that still leaves 6th level casters with the same problem.

It also leaves Classes like Fighters with the same problem but they are full fledged Fighters so they can still do combat to full effect. 6th Level casters forfeit some of the combat ability to get their 6th level spells and since they currently cant combine their spellbook like full casters, these classes are currently in the worst spot.

Edit: My proposal would also allow Classes like Paladins to combine their spellbook. I think a good guess is that they would get access to 5th and 6th level spells this way.

To make the system more accessible, Id add a requirement to choosing a spellbook standalone, namely a Caster Stat requirement. If you have a caster stat of ## (~13) for the Mythic Path specific caster stat you can choose the spellbook standalone, else you combine it with your main Classes spellbook using your main Classes caster stat. Classes without a caster stat like Fighters would be excluded from this requirement, of course.

Your post specifically shows—in great detail on your excel spreadsheet—2/3 casters having access to 8th level spells. Your text specifically says that 2/3 casters will get 8th level spells:

“As you can see, Ive added 7th and 8th level spells to the non-full caster (right table). Since there would still be NO access to 9th level spells, a full caster would still have more spells over this when selecting the Mythic spellbook as standalone.”

Either you’re proposing they get 8th level spells or you’re not, in which case half of your post is confusing (at best). Perhaps you should clarify what the effect of combining spells books will have, because your post makes it look like you’re giving 2/3 casters 8th level spells and it seems like you’re saying that is NOT what you’re proposing. If that is the case, your proposal is unclear and you may want to revise it.

Finally, you’ll notice posts by others on this thread that read it as giving 8th level spells to casters, or included questions trying to understand your proposal. Perhaps you should use this as an opportunity to clarify your proposal rather than huffing and puffing that people aren’t understanding your proposal. The former is a good way to encourage discussion to improve the game, the latter is a good way to have your proposal ignored.

Which is NOT what Im proposing. Im proposing 6th level caster to be able to combine their spellbook like full caster can.

My guess how that would work is that it adds 7th and 8th level spells to the 6th level caster but this is a guess.

In another thread I asked the community which dinosaurs they want to add to the game and the poll options were taken from their official paizo entries. This was just a guess as well. I cant know exactly which dinosaurs Owlcat may add and they could have a vastly different list altogether.

So in this thread the proposal was to allow 6th level casters to combine their spellbook.

This is the proposal in the entirety. NOTHING MORE !

The tables with MY GUESS on how it may work was intended to start a discussion and with an explanation below it why I did add 7th and 8th but not 9th level spells.

.

What followed was your 1st post in which you stated I wanted to add 10th level spells to 6th level casters. WHICH I DID NOT.

Your 2nd post in which you stated I wanted to add 9th level spells to 6th level casters. WHICH I DID NOT.

Your 3rd post in which you blame me for not posting IPhone readable content and even state that you misread my OP.

And again you state something I clearly didnt proposed.

No. Again below is my proposal.

Nothing more.

Yes, that is part of the discussion on how I guess it would work. Some may state that 8th level spells are too much or they want a lower amount of spells. Others may state that they even want 9th level spells since the Mythic Path spellbook has 9th level spells.