Paladin Alignment shift

Never had a game where doing Good actions as a paladin causes you to fall. Not only is that against the rules as written in Pathfinder, its against the spirit of the rules as well. Especially as given most of the supposed Lawful actions you list are more Lawful Evil in tone.

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Its even more silly that being evil fixes things

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Just got to this point as well, the level of pants on head stupid it is that any Good choice is actually Neutral Good and will eventually cause you to fall is absolutely laughable. I think I have had 3 or 4 Lawful choices, and 2 of those were “execute that person for breaking the law” but yeah totally buy it that Sarenrae suddenly wants nothing to do with me because I’m too kind to those in my care and too merciful to my enemies. Nonsensical.

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Thou hast fallen from grace

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Yeah. That was hard enough in Kingmaker as well. :wink: good thing first: You can amend easily, since there are a lot of atonement spells (scrolls) available.
I know. It’s not what you expect from Sarenrae, but since she is neutral good as well, there is a bit of a problem being a pure paladin (and going lawful) and following the tenets of your goddess.
Look at it like that: Since the paladinkodex is more strict, your goddess needs to give atonement, when you follow her path instead, letting her sort it out with abadar and iomedae :-).

Greets
MagicChris

Yeah, just get to lose 3000 gold every so often if I’m not willing to chop the heads off defeated enemies or go full Judge Dredd and imprison starving peasants for stealing food. Top notch logic from Owlcat.

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I’m with you man. But in my table RPG group it’s the other way around. The Paladin tells me: Of course I have to kill the enemys. They are evil. Mercy is stupid, because they will do it again! So this is lawful AND good.

I like it better your way :wink:

But it isn’t lawful. Wether you like the laws or not, you have to abide if you want to be lawful. -.-

It kind of sounds like the developers fell into the same trap as most D&D players; they make Paladins Lawful Anal.

Here’s how my first DM put it:
Most people play a Paladin, and they see a man steal bread to feed his family; they’re going to turn the man in. Because the law states stealing is a crime. This is ‘Lawful Anal’ or ‘Lawful Stupid’.
What I would do, as a Paladin, is this: I would find the man, find out why he stole the bread (to feed his family). I would then put the man under my protection and bring him back to the stall to apologize for his unlawful actions. I would also pay for the bread. Now, the law is upheld, because the man confessed and the bread was bought and paid for. But what about the man? He’s under my protection, so he’s not going to be imprisoned or have his hands removed, so I would find him a steady job, so he could repay me for the bread. It just so happens he now has steady work after he paid me back, and his family is better for it.

Boom; a real Paladin.

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The hidden Owlcat genius is the price for that bread you paid for is a 3,000 gold Scroll of Atonement. :rofl:

Law doesn’t trump Good any more than Good trumps Law. You are BOTH Lawful and Good, and if a Law orders you to do something Evil, disobeying it is 100% Paladin approved.

As my main man Davos said: “If your lord orders you to burn children, your lord is EVIL.” Anyone pretending like a Paladin has to obey all laws everywhere regardless of what they say doesn’t understand Paladins. That’d be like saying an Anti-Paladin who doesn’t take a Chaotic Good choice to break an innocent person out of jail has betrayed their Chaotic Evil code.

Paladins smite and detect Evil, they are primarily opposed to Evil. Good over all else, Law above all else save Good. Not a difficult concept.

I’m also unaware of another CRPG where you can move a bit in the chaos direction and then fall because you overall migrated from lawful good to neutral good. But it’s not true that this is against the letter or the spirit of the tabletop ruleset. Paladins that acted solely to help people without regard for law fell under any edition and still do here.

The only thing Kingmaker gets wrong compared to tabletop is being MORE, not less, generous with the player. In tabletop you would not only fall if you overall migrated to neutral good, but would also fall immediately if you ever committed an evil act, even if it’s lawful evil. Whereas Kingmaker lets you get away with that.

Let’s take “The Lord orders you to burn down the orphanage (and yes, he states the children should be burnt as well)”.
Given this:
The Orders of the lord are binding law, or the order is backed by existing laws.
You have to take the order, because you’re in liege of the lord.
Possible actions:
You have to try and change the lord’s mind, because that’s the only way you don’t have to break your oath either way. (You’re bound by the lord’s orders (lawful) as stated and you’re bound by honor to protect and never harm the innocent (Iomedae). (good)
You may have to leave the lord’s service → rejecting the order and taking the consequences of being unfaithful (imprisonment ?) (lawful)
You may call to supersede the lord`s orders by letting someone higher dismiss the order. (That may be your goddess, but it has to be a direct order) (lawful)
You may take the samurai way and resist by seppuku. (lawful)

Just because there is no nice and easy way to defend your honor, you’re not free to break the law, without having to atone afterwards!
Remember: Atonement is only given, if the goddess
a) sees reason in your wrongdoing
b) thinks you couldn’t have known and did repent
c) thinks you were tricked or dominated without free will

That’s my take on this situation.

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Killing orphans would be considered an evil act. I doubt any Paladin would either follow it, or simply leave his lord’s service to avoid doing it.

An actual Paladin would leave his lord’s service and directly oppose him, because a Paladin serves Good and Law, and that Law is NOT ALWAYS human/mortal laws. If his god’s tenants says to defend the innocent; that god’s Laws take precedence over this human lord’s order, no matter what.

If that Paladin tried to say he was ‘following the law’, I’m pretty sure he’d still lose his powers. Because he broke his god’s law to follow a mortal lord’s law.

He certainly would.

That one is a bit tricky. Sure thing opposing the lord is sensible, since he won’t give up the plan on killing the orphans. But how to oppose is a different question. Surely saving the orphans should be the main goal.
Sticking your sword through the lord’s chest while resigning isn’t exactly “the good” way. (and it’s almost never lawful if you’re not the true heir or something)
Destabilizing the government, won’t take back that order (he maybe gave other orders too), let alone save the orphanage.
Proving he is an imposter demon who killed the true lord, while getting as many people to the countryside may do the trick. (and is a much better storyline for a paladin)

:wink: just suggesting

I think he would drop his service and tell his former lord/baron/king that he will have to oppose him if he continues down this path, for it is an evil act, which Paladins fight against. he would do this in private, in case the lord/baron/king would turn back to the side of Good.

If the lord/baron/king would not repent his actions:

He would offer his services to the orphanage to protect them, or move them somewhere safe, while making it known to the public that the lord/baron/king was attempting to murder orphans.

Because evil hides in the shadows, whereas truth is the light that burns the shadows away. So the Paladin would have 0 reason to keep the lord/baron/king’s actions a secret, once his former lord/baron/king has shown he wishes to continue down an evil path.

Full agree with the original poster. Played a Paladin until a few quests into Act 4. I’ve never taken any alignment based decision which was not either Lawful or Good, but have taken more Good decisions than Lawful ones, despite consciously picking a number of lawful decisions, when they did not smack of Lawful Evil, over good options (contrary to roleplaying preference), to try and avoid these decisions.

Angel “Heaven is pleased with your actions!”

Heaven “No Heaven is not pleased! How dare you speak with kindness to a suffering comrade! Now go repeatedly execute and torture people until you are worthy of being a Paladin again!”

WOTR is a great game, but this is a poorly implemented mechanic that has destroyed a play through. Please consider Good/ Evil actions not shifting the Lawful/ Chaos axis, and vice versa.

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As I have stopped bothering with Owlcat’s desire /ability to proceed with any changes with this, I am thinking of using this mod : Alignment Shifts That Aren't Dumb at Pathfinder: Wrath of The Righteous Nexus - Mods and community
Has anyone tried it/found any problems with it so far ?

I am using it and don’t have any problems or strange alignment shifts. Toybox also has an option to fix alignment shifts now.

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Where so many go wrong with Paladin and the Lawful alignment in general is that it really has nothing to do with being a Law enforcer or Law-abiding robot. Lawful, Law enforcement is NOT LG. It is LN (True Lawful).

A Paladins Lawful commitment is to his duty and code of honor laid forth by the edicts of their Deity or Order. Paladins are not subject to obey nor enforce the Laws of the land.

Paladins are not Police officers and Judge Dredd is 10000000% LN.

D&D 3.5 covers all this. Is Pathfinder different? A Paladin of Shelyn should behave quite differently than a Paladin of Iomadae. In 3.5 Paladins of Lathlander, The Morning Lord are beloved by the common folk, while Paladins of Helm, not so much.

I don’t think it can work that way.
If a paladin would be immune to the law (like some sort of secret agent or diplomat), even the Lawful Good monarchs will ban them from their country, because you would have to let them break the law (of your country) to achieve their goals. So every scoundrel would tell everybody to be a paladin, so he can break the law all he wants, because no one could lawfully stop him except a paladin, who is NOT inclined to do so by his/her god/goddess.
Maybe I’m a bit pessimistic about whether that rule would work out well on a table, but at least in-game there would be a lot of misuses and/or holy wars between windmill paladins fighting each other over who can enforce the laws of their gods best.
And I do think, there would be Asmodeuspaladins since that’s the sort of thing asmodeus would exploit to the brim.

:wink:
Greets
MagicChris