Last slot for Cleric Archetype

Don’t really think that it needs a suggestion because it seems like an obvious choice but Undead Lord cleric archetype fits nicely for those who want to play as a cleric-lich. Having only one domain he instead gains an extra undead follower and his ultimate ability allows him to heal undead without rolling the dice. He automatically empowers and maximizes such spells, just imagine the carnage!

With other archetypes focused on good, it is nice to have something alternative.

P.S.: A bit salty from the blasted Devilbane priest. What an awful archetype and a waste of a slot. Sacrificing domain for nothing special, his name is the only thing that is good about him. I really hope he will receive some homebrew goodness.

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Heavy Armor is awkward without Armor Training but I suppose you could build a Harrim-like MC or some kind of hybrid with a class that has Armor Training, but those two Feats aren’t anything to sneeze at and Knowledge that scales with level isn’t bad either. Youi can get your Domain back for the price of one Mythic Ability.

Whenever a subtype looks bad there’s usually some scenario where it’s enough better than it looks that it could be viable.

It’s just there were so many options with more fun stuff going for them. But as soon as saw his name I knew he would be in-game. Hell, original campaign probably spawned them as a class for cleric-crusaders. Thanks to Devilbane I buried Blossoming Light which I wanted to play badly. Somewhat similar to Ecclesitheurge but good. Frying both heretics and demons with his channel instead of just undead. Would be fun…but at this point I can’t pick him over Undead Lord since Angelfire is similar enough to BL.

While Undead Lord sounds very much like the best possible choice towards the Lich Path, its a divine caster Class unlike the Lich which is arcane.

Mixing them would create a vastly OP character even if spellbooks cant be merged, meaning it would outright disqualify using a full arcane caster for the Lich Path because it would be moot compared to the Undead Lord who can cast the full range of arcane spells from Lich AND full range of divine spells from Cleric PLUS cast these Auto-Empowered + Auto-Maximized on his minions AND himself.

I fully support implementing the Undead Lord - its a Class I also would like to see implemented - but there should be considerable downsides.

Haha, let’s be realistic, mythics, 10lvl spells and end game items will be OP in WotR on a lever that we could not dream of in Kingmaker :sweat_smile:

Yes, but youre still only Mythic and not a Deity. For a Deity, these would be fitting powers. There have to be at least some limits.

I still think Owlcat will implement it, because it fits right in, but this combo will break any balance left. Im already seeing posts of people saying the game is way too difficult and other replying its ultra-easy on Impossible difficulty without stating that they do but playing Undead Lord Lich, of course.

Correction: Lich is both for arcane and divine class builds. Its spellbook can be merged freely with all kinds of spellcasters to fit the player’s needs.

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Really ? Naturally, this makes it a divine caster Path. I mean Clerics:

  • have all Cleric spells

  • can spontaneous convert Inflict spells to heal + damage at same time

  • have all the Lich spells

  • in addition to many arcane spells on the Lich list

  • can cast in Heavy Armor and while using Shields

  • have BAB 15 which helps with Ray spells

.

Arcanist / Sorcerer / Wizard:

  • do NOT have ANY Cleric spells

  • can NOT spontaneous convert Inflict spells to heal + damage at same time; in fact, they cant even heal themselves outside of a few Lich spells

  • have all the Lich spells

  • but NOT in addition to many arcane spells on the Lich list, because they are already on their own arcane spell list

  • can NOT cast in any Armor and can also NOT cast while using Shields

  • have BAB 10 which doesnt help with Ray spells

.

Is there, like at all, a Path that focuses on full arcane casters ?

Disagree. The Lich is suited for a variety of things. That naturally goes for Clerics and non-Clerics as well. And even non-full spellcasters for the record. Heck, running around as a Dirge Bard Lich inside the alpha has been helluva fun as well.

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Is that official or just alpha bug?

If you mean the possibility of merging the Lich spellbook with existing class spellbooks then that’s official.

Ment merging Lich spellbook with both for arcane and divine class and even with bard.
I thought that Lich could merge spellbook only with Wizard and Sorcerer, at least I think that was said in one of the streams.

The Lich is indeed more versatile in that aspect and not limited to arcane spellcasters, yes.

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It’s not so bad, esp. for sorc. Sorcs have bloodline buffs that give them abilities and free spells, sometimes even cleric spells or in other cases higher DC which is critical against high-level enemies and necro spells. Main weakness of sorc is limited spell selection but lich he can skip most necromancy ones since he will get them later for free expanding their list beyond what is normally possible and making them even more versatile since they are spontaneous casters.

If you want BAB you can take Eldrich Knight.

To heal yourself you can cast Fiery Body on yourself, then Firebrand on your allies and then Obsidian Flow - entangle AoE with 10d6 fire damage which you can empower and maximize further. That is the damage without any +elemntal damage per die power-ups. Since you receive healing only at 1/3 ratio from fire recieved and AoE damage from the spell is halved on reflex you can also add Vampiric Shadowshield for extra effect.

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Sorcerers make for poor Metamagic users due to the added casting times and as for Bloodlines, Clerics get Domains which achieve some of these good bonuses but of course, not all of them.

I was not aware of this but it still sounds overly complicated and requires several spellcasts to achieve what a Cleric Lich could by using any of his spells converted to Inflict spells which basically makes his whole spellbook consist of Inflict spells in addition to the original spells underneath.

Dont get me wrong, Sorcerer Lichs are not bad. Its just Cleric Lichs are vastly superior. They also cast spells in Heavy Armor plus with a Shield equipped so less chance Id need healing spells regardless of the procedure involved. They also have that +5 BAB built in without need to multiclass.

All this in addition to the Clerics Channel Negative Energy which I can readily use to either damage all enemies or heal myself AND all my undead minions and that many times / day because Cleric Lich can merge spellbook and has no need to split Stat distribution further by having to add Intelligence to Wisdom and Charisma.

The best Race would of course be Aasimar and it kinda contradicts the Lichs main theme, playing an Aasimar Cleric Lich. The best pick should have been a Dhampir Arcanist Lich instead.

Another problem is that the opposite is not true if Angel allows merging with Arcanist / Sorcerer / Wizard because Id still not be able to cast in Armor plus Shields so the ability to merge is that more viable for divine casters going for arcane spellbooks and I think this is a mistake from Owlcat.

It sounds like the Golden Dragon Path will be the Good alignment option for Mythic arcane spellbooks so with the info I got in this thread, I will now likely play a Cleric that merges with that spellbook creating the Good equivalent to an Evil Cleric Lich.

Thanks for this info, appreciated !

Aasimar is not “of course” the best race. A Feat is almost always worth more than a couple DEX and and a once per rest low level spell, and Human also gets an extra skill point per level. You can role play Aasimar fine but they’re almost always gimped compared to Human or Elf which gets free Spell Pen.

I don’t think Owlcat is bothered with balancing much to be honest. I think they just want to make up stuff and let us have fun without considering how broken or not we can be. In kingmaker you can build chars that delete whole wild hunt squads with one cast or kill spawn in one hit for example so it is clear they do not care about limiting the player’s power in any way. Top-level liches in WotR can dish out up to 480 AoE damage with a single spell not counting any legendary items that might boost it further so how good you can heal your undead minions or yourself is a moot point, there is simply no need to rely on them and lich will end up OP no matter what.

Owlcat just uses the Pathfinder rules. Yes, some players (not me) can solo the game on unfair. So what? If you do not like the rules complain to Paizo, not to Owlcat.
I like that they stick close to the PnP rules, unlike BG3. (I also like BG3, it’s just that some rule changes make no sense)

The mystc paths are not restricted by class. Lich can be powerful together with many classes, be it sorc, cleric, bard or something different.
Just remember that you have to be evil and you will become undead some day, this means many immuneties but reversed healing and cha replaces con.

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Agreed, I don’t think nerfing is needed for a game that was basically made to give you all the tools to be as OP as possible.

Another thing I wanted to mention but forgot, unlike cleric main casting stat of sorcerer actually has synergy with lich.