I don't want +all stat items to be in the game

I think a big problem with Kingmaker was the existence of + all mental stat circlets and + all phys stat belts.

They really screwed with the class balance and made multiple dips into stat -> AC classes abnormally good.

Also they were so commonly available and broadly good that they crowded out more interesting choices in those slots.

I would really prefer that the more powerful a piece of equipment is, the more specialized it is, or the more negative tradeoffs it comes with. These generic “+ a bunch of numbers, wheee” items are not very interesting.

I don’t play tabletop, but I hear that + all stat items usually don’t exist there?

What are some good examples of typical items you might find in a mid-high level tabletop campaign?

2 Likes

Those belts and circlets do exist in Pathfinder TT, and the +2 all stat items are as common as the +6 to one stat items, if not more (i think).

2 Likes

Well the thing here is this, those plus stats are OFTEN at those tables, you just would maybe bring another set of things with you so if needed you can switch out.

Id also like to see them removed. In my opinion items that adds stats should have a good explanation why.

For instance in BG there were the ‘Girdles of ### Giant Strength’ that set your Strength to that of a ### Giant. Finding one of these was rewarding and they also didnt set your Dex & Con to OP values.

Rather, items that add to stats should be unique and very limited, making stat distribution and character progression choices more meaningful as well as make these items that more rewarding to find. Stat bonuses on items should be limited to a single stat.

In Kingmaker you could find enough +6 everything items to outfit your whole party (and the bench as well) along with +8 everything items for your MC. Does that happen in tabletop?

In tabletop, you can craft your own items, and yes, it has been such a trend that there even was an optional rule in one book to replace those items by automatic Stat increase by level, so as to leave item slots available for other items, only because belt and head slots were mostly used for those Stat-increase items.

1 Like

Yeah those stat +6 increasing items are really bad and one of the worst aspects of 3.5/ Pathfinder

I made this point in the Main Discussion forum before there was a WOTR forum. Even though I enjoyed building and playing several dexterity tanks with monk, paladin, sword saint and duelist dips, plate-based tanks were substantially weaker because of the prevalence of touch AC attacks and because of the ease with which a player could acquire items that provided an enhancement bonus to multiple attributes. As someone who plays on higher difficulties, this system incentives the player not to use a plate-based tank (which I think look and are thematically cool and which let me use those awesome plate drops that I’d otherwise vendor) and to include a monk splash in every tanking build for crane style. I don’t think that the items were the underlying cause of the problem, but rather that the class design is the problem.

Instead of removing the items, I would do some combination of the following: (1) buff strength tanks by giving them Str ==> AC class traits; (2) buff strength tanks by giving them the ability to be a DR tank, either by substantially increasing DR on heavy armor and providing talents that reduce the % bonus of damage from crits (i.e., like a better version of preserved organs); (3) cap the dodge bonus from Wisdom/Charisma/Intelligence ==> AC talents by class level, i.e. you can gain +1 dodge bonus to AC from wisdom for every 2 levels (with a maximum of +10 AC at lvl 20 in the class with the AC conversion trait, plus whatever you can get from dexterity, which is usually +13/14, for a total of 24; this is roughly comparable to the +21/22 you can get from heavy armor and a shield, and requires a specific build), instead of 1 class level allowing an unlimited amount of Wisdom/Charisma to be converted into AC; (4) change the Wisdom/Charisma/Intelligence ==> to be a bit like weapon finesse/slashing grace/fencing grace and allow the player to substitute their wisdom/charisma/intelligence for dexterity instead of add the wisdom/charisma/intelligence. Of these, I like options 1 and 2 the best because they do not take-away what some people love about MAD dexterity tanks, but instead give people who want plate wearing, strength tanks to be viable. I especially like #2 because it’s lore authentic (i.e., a person in heavy metal will be easier to hit than a nimble person not weighted down by armor, but the armor will substantially reduce the damage they take), because it gives dexterity and strength tanks different roles/strengths (i.e., dexterity tanks will be better against smaller numbers of really strong hits because they are less likely to be hit and because mirror image won’t wear off as quickly, whereas strength tanks will be better against large numbers of weaker hits and have better durability throughout a long fight), and because it creates a new type of tanking style based upon DR and mitigating the magnitude of critical hits (rather than simply avoiding them). Obviously, I’m changing the PF game system, but I think it would be for the better by creating more parity among tanks and giving players a meaningful choice about which (or perhaps both) types of tanks to bring.

Isn’t it kind of pointless? Deviating from the PF system just to keep these items in there? And the items only result in power creep, requiring harder enemies with more artificial stat inflation.

Why not just remove the items, and have appropriately balanced enemies? The net result is the same, without any need for major changes.

I’m fine if +2 all stat items are the maximum you can get, and maybe +6 single stat.

Because there are numerous +4 buff spells. The items aren’t the source of the problem—it’s the class design and/or class dips/splashing that create the disparity between armor and dex tanks.

Also, without these items, there’s less power growth over the game. Growth is generally satisfying and it allows for quest completion to be rewarded.

It’s a single-player campaign… so… don’t use the +X all stat items?

The +X multi stat items help builds that might be underpowered catch up. It’s not like it’s a terribly massive boost or anything either: +2 or +3 to a save result or DC is nice, but not game-breaking.

We could say that in TT there is nothing preventing a GM to give +6 all stats as if it was candy (or allowing the party the time and resources to craft lots of them).

However, in Paizo APs, +all stats above +2 are rare finds as written loot/reward.

Personally, I’d limit changes to the base Pathfinder system where possible. The +2/4/6 items exist in base PFS and I feel should stay rather than rework groups of classes.

At Mythic power levels, I think I’d absolutely expect the high end versions of those items to exist!

2 Likes

What happen in tabletop really depend from game master (and players).
I personally prefer for slow level up and XP gain. But I totally understand that most people would be outraged if when planning a serie of games they would hear that “after around 25 years in real life or so you will be level 6 with only few magical items, unless you (speaking from your PC, not you as a player) happen to die”.

Now that is kind of extreme, but reason for that is because we do not have time to play so often (few times a year or max like 4x a year), we live all in different towns, have families, kids, jobs and so on.

What I am trying to say is, in computer game there usually is not an option to choose between “low, medium, high” in XP / item gain and specially game lenght. Yes there are options to choose how hard game will be but that usually have nothing to do with how much XP or items & gold (to buy items) you will get / or find from merchants.

For items themself, I prefer more of descriptions and “one of a kind” items. Even for these low level magical items. I much more would find an “Tooth picker” +1 short sword which were used by a troll you encounter in the game then +2 short sword with lvl 6 fireball once a day item without any name and you just happen to find it at random room you rent from local inn.

They can reward power via more interesting and unique items with tradeoffs, though.

These generically good +everything items don’t add anything interesting and crowd out more unique choices.

Let’s spin it around the other way - if Kingmaker never had these items (only +2 all stats or +6 single stat) and instead had a lot more unique helms and belts, would people really be complaining that they wanted those unique items removed, and for +8 all stat items to be implemented?

Nothing against unique items (i like them too), but as +all stat items are part of Pathfinder in TT, and both KM and WotR are based on it, i bet there would be complaints if they were removed (i would miss them), specially considering we wouldn´t be able to craft them (without mods).

I agree that unique weapons are almost always awesome and WotR would almost certainly benefit from having more of them, but I don’t think they need to take out the +stat items at the same time. If they have to choose between one or the other I would vote for unique items, but I’m not convinced it has to be one or the other, especially not now they’d be putting those items into a game that runs on basically the same engine as the first. I’m all about giving players more options, and those items do exactly that. If you don’t want to use them, you don’t have to, but they’re good for those players who want them.

2 Likes

exactly this. removing options are always bad. just like those who dislike save-scumming and there goes yelling at devs face demanding them to remove it so that everyone doesn’t have it simply because they themselves cannot control their pathetic urge.

Oh, I agree that the + all items are less interesting than other items. The best gaming items are ones that improve power and add new playstyles and have trade offs. But I don’t think the + all items crowd out other, more interesting items. Rather, I suspect more interesting items take more development time, which is scarce, and so the choice is the + all items or nothing as a replacement (I could be wrong about that—obviously I don’t have inside information). And I said before, removing the + all items
does t solve the disparity between plate and dex/cha/wisdom tanks because of plentiful buffs at lvl 2 spells. Id love to see more interesting item design, however.

If I could choose one item, I would a knock back or knock down weapon. Traps or elevation could then be added, or a party could them
Build around attacks of opportunity. But as this example shows, there would be a lot of programming work required to develop these systems.

Or I’d add a cloak with stealth teleport as a swift action for rogues to let them teleport and give them stealth for 1 round—allowing them to do a full round attack with sneak attacks. Goodbye casters.