"Gold Dragon" loses many inherited mythic abilities after retrain

So, I switched from Lich to Gold Dragon, and I lost my undead companions including my Skeletal chamption - and this is totally fine.

However, the Lich spells were still with me after switch, which also seemed logical, because otherwise you lose all benefits of Mythic levels 1-7, since Golden Dragon starts on Mythic level 8.

But the first problem with Gold Dragon started here - why Dragon’s mythic level is not added now to my caster level? This ruined completely my Sorcerer’s build (and will ruin every caster-based class, because they even lose the 9th level spells, not speaking about spells DC, spell penetration and so on). This is illogical even lore-wise - dragons are always powerful spellcasters, even the most known prestige class for Sorcerers is “Dragon’s Disciple”. Why a real dragon doesn’t count for my caster level?

The second problem revealed itself after I decided to retrain my min character, so it is more tailored to the new mythic path. And all Lich-related abilities, which existed before for my character, disappered completely, including all Lich spells!

Before respec:

After respec:

So, as you can see, the character not only lost all Lich spells, but the number of spells learnt is also ridiculous in comparison to what it had before (due to absence of merging of Lich and Sorcerer spell books).

The Gold Dragon looks hardly playable because of these problems, for caster classes at least, especially on difficulty higher than “Normal” (I used to play on “Core”, and finished the game being pure Lich already, this time wanted to also try Gold Dragon, which doesn’t look playable at all).

There is another thread, where other common Golden Dragon-related problems described in detail.

Just in sake of completeness, these are the caster characteristic before switching to the Dragon mythic path:

The way I understood, you should loose all your lich abilities (including spells and heightened caster level) right away when changing to gold dragon path. You should only keep your mythic feats, mythic abilities and mythic origin. Something like this:

This might seem a little harsh in the beginning, but once you get another mythic rank it is very powerfull especially for full casters. Myhtic rank 9 your ability scores are boosted, also your base saves and your base attack bonus won’t depend on your character class. Also being able to turn into a dragon at will. All this making you a decent fighter without loosing any spell progression from your class. Though I would suggest retraining to get some combat feats. Also learning some buff spells to boost your combat abilites should help.
While draongs are casters they arent just casters they are fighters as well :slight_smile:

Gold dragons are possibly the most awful casters of all paths.

Unfortunately them losing all other abilities is by design even though another Path from chapter 5 - devil - retains those abilities.

Yes, these were exactly the reasons why I wanted to retrain the character.
And I agree - it could be that the actual bug is that Lich’s spells retain right after you switch on Dragon.

However, losing all these spells and bumped caster level really doesn’t feel right, neither mechanically, nor Lore-wise. If the character is a “Former Lich”, why should it forget the spells they already learned? Hmmm…

As well as the caster level - even such classes as “Eldrich Knight” add to the caster level and allow you to continue to get new spells in your main caster class, there is no logic that such powerful spell weavers as Dragons do not compliment casters here as well. :grimacing:

Was it confirmed previously that it is truly like that by design?

If it wasn’t it would have been fixed already. :confused: Many people before you asked for this change. Gold Dragon is patently unfinished - you can see this in lackluster quality of his story - the way you get this path (nearly out of nowhere - one day you decide you want to be a dragon), the way it progresses, the way it ends.

Also, I don’t know about lich but other paths do state that you resign from all your powers in favor of this path so there is that.

This is true. It does feel raw and unfinished. And I really hope the path will be reviewed and rewritten.

But in the current state the path is almost useless for caster classes - it compliments hybrids and martials much more, as it seems… Especially hybrids probably, due to its bump to BAB and HP - i.e. Rogues (especially Eldrich Scoundrel 10/Arcane Trickster 10) will benefit a lot from this, but not pure casters unfortunately, due to its very low caster level (and hence spell penetration, spell DCs and so on…).

Totally agree about pure Mythic paths, such as Angel/Demon/Aeon/Lich/…, but these special paths, which you get in the end game - Dragon/Devil, they are special, and it doesn’t seem right to remove all aspects of your former Mythic because of switching to them. This ruins a lot of very good builds (i.e. Lich has very well synergizing spells on levels 4-5, which would work perfectly for more martial Dragon-style as well).

To be fair, Lich with Merged spellbook is one of the most broken things in the game ever. No other path (except Angel) even comes close to its power-level, so downgrade is to be expected. And being a Gold dragon (aka the power of good) and having all those sinister spells does not mesh well.

IMO Gold Dragon should have its own spellbook with unique spells.and unique powers to boost spellcasting abilities.

It seems, however, that for some reason someone among devs assumed Dragon should be path for martial classes - at least that’s the rumor I heard.

There’s a bug that merged casters, especially Lich, sometimes keep their spellbooks even when fully switching to late game paths. It’s really sure that this is a bug, since you keep them even on Legend path

Well, Lich has many broken things indeed, but the merged spellbook doesn’t seem to be one of them, tbh. Probably some spells should be reworked, but with the stats, which mobs have since Act 4, there is no way for a Lich to overcome their spell resistance and saving throws without bumped caster level and some Lich’s spells (for crowd control and buff your undead).

Okay, I cannot be considered Pathfinder pro, but I’m not the most stupid player out there, and I felt enough challenge on “Core” difficulty playing Lich. And I do think its power is quite fine as it is right now (bugs need to be fixed though).

Doesn’t look anyhow weird to me. Why to allow to take “Close to Abyss” mythic hero option for an Angel then? Or let’s go further and remember about Bloodlines. Should “good” bloodlines be totally prohibited for Demon or Lich mythic paths? How about “evil” bloodlines (Demonic, Infernal, …) for Angel again, or… Azata?

Bloodline is your legacy, and those “retain” Lich abilities after switch to Dragon path may also be your “legacy” lore-wise. I do not see much of a constradiction here.

Okay, having them for Legend doesn’t seem right :slight_smile:

And yet, all other mythic paths (except Angel) have to overcome those spell resistances and saving throws without those sick spells and without merged spellbook and without increased caster levels and without benefits of Abundant casting feats (which do not work with unmerged spellbooks). Merging spellbooks is the most broken mechanics in this game which negatively impacted encounter balancing, imo. Still, I do not begrudge you power fantasy. Just know that not having your caster level stacking is normal - it’s Lich that is an anomaly.

As an aside - trying to play arcane caster with unmerged spellbook, is not much fun. There are no advantages to not merging your spellbook.

Yeah, that’s my beef. It’s fine when you play the most OP mythic path. Still I am all for brining all other mythic paths to the power level of the Lich.

Let’s face it, those abilities are nowhere near as impactful as those OP spells in your merged spellbook.

Still, I guess it would be awesome if Gold Dragon path was instead Dragon path - and depending on the path you were on before switching to Dragon - you become a different dragon. So Lich → Shadow Dragon (Dracolich would be too OP), Azata → Havoc Dragon, Angel → Gold Dragon, Aeon → Blue Dragon etc. And of course, you retain your past abilities.

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Looks like Angel and Legend are much more OP (judging by people’s comments).

And I agree that if Demon/Devil/Dragon paths are weaker, it doesn’t mean other paths must be lowered to their level - it’s vice versa. It’s not Lich, who is broken, it’s these weak paths.

Again - I’m not the pro-pro-player, but I’m not the worst one either. And I felt quite a challenge in the game on the “correct” difficulty (which is “Core”). This means, the Lich is not OP. OP is when you don’t take any companions and soloing the game just because there is no challenge (as people wrote about Angel).

Lich’s spells are OP on 9th and 10th spell level. When you switch to Dragon, you lose these levels. So no, I don’t think they’re OP, they are quite fine, and not really more… Especially in the endgame, when “Embrace of Death” doesn’t really work on mobs anymore because of their insane Will saves.

That is a very good idea and I’m all for it! But I doubt it’ll be ever implemented even partially, it’s too much to do here.

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