Fighter / Alchemist

Hi there,

First of all, i have no interest in min/max every single aspect of my character!!! Instead i want to “role-play” him. If that means, that i have some weaknesses, great, that’s life :smiley: I don’t want to shine in all categories, i just want some immersive hours with the game.

I plan to create a dwarf character, which has a fighter & alchemist class. Because i’m relatively new to this kind of game (had only some experience with Baldurs Gate 2 back in the days) and besides all bugs and performance issues on Xbox, i hope that somebody here could provide me with some useful ideas or feedback, so that i cloud start a new game.

My idea is to use some dwarf weapons like hammers/axes with shield, maybe with medium armor, with the ability to throw a bomb or take some mutagen, to boost my stats.
Is this possible? If yes, how does this work? If i choose a fighter class to start with, is it possible to take a second “profession” on a level-up? Do i have to choose between these classes every time i level up?

Many thanks in advance.

Yes it’s possible but the main problem is that you will need a high attributes everywhere except for charisma and wisdom. Also, one want melee feats and the other range feats. If you go for the alchemist vivisectionist instead and forget about bomb, then yes, it’s very possible and also quite strong.

For example something like 5 fighter / 12 vivisectionist / 3 free level for anything

Yes you choose what class you level each time you level up. There some restrictions, but overall you can take almost any classes combination.

Thanks for your advice Mork! That sounds exactly like the character I like to play. I‘m not that interested in bombs, more in mutagens and extracts, so a vivisectionist should do the trick.

Another silly question: How do i know on which level i have to choose which class?
You mentioned 5 levels on fighter and 12 on vivisectionist. Should i begin with a fighter and change class every level, or go straight 5 level on fighter, before i go vivisectionist?

Personally i will probably go with something like >>>

A very strong build overall

Dwarf Two-handed fighter 7 (greataxe) / vivisectionist 12
STR: 16 > 20
DEX: 14
CON: 14
INT: 16
WIS: 10 or 12
CHA: 6 or 8

  1. Two-handed Fighter: Dodge, imp unarmed strike(requirement for crane style)
  2. Vivisectionist
  3. 2H Fighter: Accomplish sneak attacker, crane style
  4. Vivisectionist: +1 STR, Feral mutagen (to get a extra bite attack)
  5. Vivisectionist: Outflank (Need to be taken with every melees characters as soon as possible)
  6. 2H Fighter:
  7. 2H Fighter: Weapon focus greataxe, weapon specialization greataxe
  8. 2H Fighter: +1 STR
  9. Vivisectionist: imp. critical greataxe, infusion
  10. Vivisectionist:
  11. Vivisectionist: Power attack, Feral wing
  12. Vivisectionist: +1 STR
  13. Vivisectionist: Combat reflex(DEX item will be needed), combat trick = cleave
  14. Vivisectionist
  15. Vivisectionist: Cleaving finish, Crippling strike
  16. Vivisectionist: +1 STR
  17. Vivisectionist: Great cleave or blind fight, Greater Mutagen
  18. 2H Fighter: imp, cleaving finish
  19. 2H Fighter: anything
  20. … vivisectionist

Skill:
Mobility MAX or at least 3pts
Trickery MAX
Perception MAX
Persuasion MAX
Athletic the left over

Important spells:
Shield (replace a physical shield)
Enlarge (Give you extra reach and extra damage)
Expeditious retreat
Barskin
Blur
Protection from arrow communal
Haste
Echolocation (Extremely useful learn why in the future but it basically replace the feat blind fight)
Greater invisibility

Important item:
Gloves of Dueling, Hidden chest in top right of poison area, Swamp Witch’s Hut

Or a 1h axe or warhammer and shield style (A lot weaker)

Dwarf base fighter 5 / vivisectionist 12
STR: 16 > 20
DEX: 14
CON: 14
INT: 16
WIS: 10 or 12
CHA: 6 or 8

  1. Fighter: Dodge, imp unarmed strike(requirement for crane style)
  2. Vivisectionist
  3. Fighter: shield focus, crane style
  4. Vivisectionist: +1 STR, Feral mutagen (to get a extra bite attack)
  5. Vivisectionist: Outflank (Need to be taken with every melees characters as soon as possible)
  6. Fighter:
  7. Fighter: Accomplish sneak attacker, Armor focus heavy armor
  8. Fighter: +1 STR, weapon of choice warhammer or axe
  9. Vivisectionist: imp. critical axe or warhammer, infusion
  10. Vivisectionist:
  11. Vivisectionist: weapon focus axe or warhammer, Feral wing
  12. Vivisectionist: +1 STR
  13. Vivisectionist: Combat reflex(DEX item will be needed), combat trick = weapon specialization axe or warhammer
  14. Vivisectionist
  15. Vivisectionist: power attack(?), Crippling strike
  16. Vivisectionist: +1 STR
  17. Vivisectionist: toughness(?), Greater Mutagen

Skill:
Mobility MAX or at least 3pts
Trickery MAX
Perception MAX
Persuasion MAX
Athletic the left over

Important spells:
Shield (replace a physical shield)
Enlarge (Give you extra reach and extra damage)
Expeditious retreat
Barskin
Blur
Protection from arrow communal
Haste
Echolocation (Extremely useful learn why in the future)
Greater invisibility

Important item:
Gloves of Dueling, Hidden chest in top right of poison area, Swamp Witch’s Hut
Mitral fullplate

The main problem with that one is his weapon.
Warhammer require a lot of knowledge to easily get on how artisans work.
Unique Battle axe are very not good in this game.
Heavy mace could be a good choice, especially during mid level.
Flail at end game if you where to get it.
Dwarven axe are rare and not very ‘‘unique’’ .

To give you a idea of potential unique weapons: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1u97TsUG8ea4iRJlKRglYJEUj1_-fv2IdD4mugopvzz4/htmlview#

Wow :flushed:
Thank you so much for your efforts!!! The 2H Fighter sounds really really nice, not only because of his damage output! It’s exactly what I was thinking about, besides the physical shield. I think will give this one a go.

One last question for my understanding please: For what purpose do I need the Crane Style?

No you don’t need crane style

But a alchemist can reach very nice AC without even trying and crane style give you +4 AC by itself when fighting defensively. Up to you…

I’m not sure what i will take if i wasn’t going for crane style. Probably taking other feats sooner and see later.

  1. Two-handed Fighter: power attack, weapon focus greataxe
  2. Vivisectionist
  3. 2H Fighter: cleave, cleaving finish
  4. Vivisectionist: +1 STR, Feral mutagen (to get a extra bite attack)
  5. Vivisectionist: Outflank (Need to be taken with every melees characters as soon as possible)
  6. 2H Fighter:
  7. 2H Fighter: Accomplish sneak attacker, great cleave
  8. 2H Fighter: +1 STR
  9. Vivisectionist: imp. critical greataxe, infusion
  10. Vivisectionist:
  11. Vivisectionist: imp. cleaving finish, Feral wing
  12. Vivisectionist: +1 STR
  13. Vivisectionist: weapon specialization greataxe, combat trick = Combat reflex(DEX item will be needed)
  14. Vivisectionist
  15. Vivisectionist: maybe extend spell, Crippling strike
  16. Vivisectionist: +1 STR
  17. Vivisectionist: any feat, Greater Mutagen
  18. 2H Fighter: any feat
  19. 2H Fighter: any feat
  20. … vivisectionist

Or just go vivisectionist 19/monk 1. You pick up monk because it doesn’t cost you any base attack bonus, grabs an extra feat early, and allows you to get crane style—which will reduce the penalty for fighting defensively—and it will qualify you for a very good robe later in the game, if you’re lawful good. Also, the dip will allow you to convert a secondary stat—wisdom or charisma—to armor class, which will really help with your AC later in the game when you receive items that give +6 or more to mental stats.

You can focus on strength (higher overall damage and better ways to buff strength through legendary proportions) or dexterity (lower damage, even after picking the right feats to convert dexterity to damage, but higher AC). I’d probably select dexterity because with sword and board, you’ll want to build towards shield slam.

You’ll rely on mage armor, shield, fighting defensively, dexterity to armor class, and either charisma or wisdom to armor class—depending upon which monk you select. There are imo stronger ways to build, but since you want a sword and board style, you select the two weapon fighting feats and go for a shield slam build. That means starting with a dexterity of at least 13, but ideally 15, and relying upon a belt to get you the rest of the way for feats. Dwarf isn’t optimal for this type of build because it doesn’t boost dexterity, but it can be done. But because it penalizes charisma, the race does encourage traditional monk over scaled fist for your dip.

If you’re open to changing races and sword and board, consider starting as a motherless tiefling (free bite attack from racial) and selecting feral mutagen for your first alchemist discovery. That will give you 2 claw attacks and 2 bite attacks at lvl 2/3–depending on when you splash monk. That’s 4 attacks very early in the game at your full BAB (iirc, they are all primary), with each of them receiving full sneak attack die. That’s an immense amount of damage early game—multiple attacks, multiple sneak attack die, all full base attack bonus, all scaling with your strength—where other melee have a single attack, or perhaps 2 attacks (with both suffering penalties) and oftentimes not having sneak attack. You can then pair this build with the cloak of the winter wolf, which causes each bite attack to deal 1d6 extra damage and make a free trip attempt. For this build, you’ll want to focus on strength because you’re using unarmed, natural weapons, and because you’ll pick up trip feats. End game, when natural weapons don’t scale as well, you’ll switch to a 2H weapon like the trip fauchard (iirc, it’s named mastery, it’s crafted by one of your artisans). The key early feats/discoveries are dodge (to qualify for crane style), feral mutagen, crane style, improved sneak attack, and outflank. Here’s a link with a sample build.

https://www.gog.com/forum/pathfinder_kingmaker/ineffects_guide_v2/post230

There’s a few things I would do in there because it’s too min-max for my tastes, but it should give you an idea for the feats to look at. I’d definitely select accomplished sneak attack much earlier in the build, for example.

Honestly, there’s absolutely no reason to take any levels in fighter—it will just weaken your character.

@ Mork: thanks again for your detailed answer, I will look into it.

@ Raikan: Thank you too! I think I will stay with a dwarf, I like these little fella and I already played one in Pillars of Eternity :smiley: As you say, there is too much min/maxing and I don‘t like to play an all optimized character. But I kinda like the idea with mixing a character with a monk … I think I have to read some more about this topic.

A 1 lvl monk splash is unfortunately too strong to bypass for any, non-reach melee build. Crane style is too strong, the xxx-to-AC trait is powerful, and the monk robes later in the game are fantastic. I separately suggested that Owlcat change how these traits work in WOTR, but I doubt they will.

If you play WOTR when it is released next year, make sure you look at the Mutation Warrior archetype for the fighter class. It combines plate armor and full base attack bonus and martial weapons (from the fighter class) with mutagens (from the alchemist). It sounds like it would be a great fit for what you’re building.

Note: I’ve read on the forums that Mutation Warrior will be in WOTR from a very credible poster who has access to inside information, but it isn’t in the alpha currently. Fingers crossed.

crane style gives you +1 dodge AC when fighting defensively not +4
you automatically get +2AC dodge for fighting defensively and an extra +1AC dodge if have 3 ranks or more of mobility, and -4 to hit.
crane style adds to this with a furthur +1AC dodge bonus and a +2 to hit
so someone fighting defensively without crane style would get +2 dodge AC and -4 to hit
fighting defensively with 3 ranks mobility +3 dodge AC and -4 to hit
fighting defensively with 3 ranks mobility and crane style +4 dodge AC -2 to hit.
this is 2x feats (improved unarmed and crane style) which i do not think is worth getting a monk level for for fighter, 2 handed fighter nor shield specialist as the amount of bonus feats you get on top of normal feats means id rather be hitting class progression than waste a level on monk.
for aldori defender its totally worth a monk level as probably going to be un armoured so wis or cha to AC is good (and not as many bonus feats as the other fighter subtypes). other classes that dont get bonus feats probably worth a monk dip for it, but only if going heavy AC
its more important for the +2 to hit (bringing penalty to -2) for your tanks to be able to hit aswell.

crane wing gives you another +4 on top but if enemy misses you by 4 or less you lose this till your next turn. also only works if have a hand free (although works with 2 handed weapons, bug?)

crane style IS NOT worth it if you are not going pure defense
this game spikes enemies hit chance dramatically. easy fodder its not needed, hard enemies it will only matter if you are stacking AC

at moment im level 7 in the swamp witch area. the enraged greater blah blah owl bears and venomhodanks need a 14 (i think it was? and think that includes them flanking?) to hit valerie fighting defensively, she has an AC of 37 +3 defensive fighting (dont have crane style yet, fucked up, planned to pick up at level 7 forgot what i was doing a took another feat instead dohh!). thats pretty damn high for where im at i believe.
jaethal on the other hand they only miss on a 1, so +4 for fighting defensively with crane style isnt going to do anything, they will need a 5 instead, more than likely actually will still only miss on a 1 as thats the lowest you can roll ie if they actually need a -2 to hit thats exactly the same as 2 to hit, 1 always misses and is the lowest roll. yes thats an extra 20% chance of them missing (maybe, more than likely still require only a 2 to hit, so gained nothing) but really they still going to own you (75% chance to hit!) and thats wasted feats or wasted level dip. and in reality as she has 3 ranks of mobility she is only getting a +1 to ac from crane style (also +2 to hit, taking the penalty to -2 that is much more important than the +1 AC). so only gaining a +5% chance not to get hit taking it from a 5 to a 6 they need to roll.
unfortunately medium armour class is pretty much the same as none. fodder you dont need it, tough/hard/challenging enemies it will only make a difference if you have stacked it hard.

2 handed fighter gets no armour progression either (bonus to max dex etc) so is extra wasted on them IMO. base fighters and tower shield specialists get +1 to max dex and -1 armour check penalty at level 3 and +1/-1 every 4 levels after to a max of +4/-4 respectively. 2 handed fighter does not get this. aldori defender has other goodness for AC

cant help you with alchemist, dont play them, but with these builds IMO crane style is a waste of time. unless you are going to seriously stack AC to valerie levels or beyond dont bother with it (my aldori defender/monk scaled fist/duelist will end up higher than valerie eventually). if going to heavily defensive spell up, miss chance spells would be better (blur etc).
would be better on the one handed & shield fighter build, especially if take the tower shield specialist instead of base fighter. and take heavy armour focus, shield focus and greater shield focus feats as soon as can (fighter on first level gets 2x feats (3 if human) take armour focus heavy and shield focus, need fighter 8 to get greater shield focus)
probs tower shield specialist 8/vivisectionist 12 ??? gives you 2x armour training bonus’, can get greater shield pro )8th level fighter) and have 12 levels worth of mutagens etc
??
definitely want to get atleast 5 levels of tower shield spec to remove penalty to hit while using tower shields

Without rebutting the many unusual ideas in the lengthy post immediately above mine, I’ll just make this limited point: a 1 lvl monk splash at lvl 1 or 2 to select dodge and the crane style is probably the single most important investment you’ll make in a non-reach melee character’s survival. There are two reasons for this.

First, crane style is an exceptional feat. It functionally adds +2 to hit and +1 to AC. That is equivalent to getting weapon focus x2 and dodge—three feats of stats—in a single feat. It’s great value. Crane style’s value is actually greater than this, however, because it makes fighting defensively a viable option. With crane style, fighting defensively at 3 mobility costs -2 to hit, but provides a whopping +4 dodge bonus to AC. That’s approximately a 20% less chance to be hit by an enemy, which is huge for a frontliner, and this doesn’t factor in the potential, +4 bonus from crane wing later.

Second, the monk dip saves a wasted feat that would otherwise be spent on improved unarmed combat. To get crane style without a monk dip, you have to spend a feat on improved unarmed combat. With the monk dip, you bypass that requirement. While there are some classes that have enough feats to waste one, mainly fighters and alchemists, you’re still wasting a feat at early levels, where an early outflank at lvl 5 or accomplished sneak attacker or two weapon fighting can make a big difference. Also, you are delaying crane style by at least 1 lvl because you’ll need to earn this extra feat, which matters during the early game levels, which tend to be the most difficult.

Third, the monk dip allows your character to convert either wisdom or charisma to AC, instead on only converting dexterity to AC. Even if you start with only a base 10 in wisdom or charisma, through enhancement bonuses on items, you’ll get at least a + 6 or + 8 enhancement bonus by end game. That’s another +3-4 AC.

Finally, the monk splash allows your character to wear an exceptional monk robe, if you have lawful good alignment. The robe is fantastic because it increases your AC while keeping your dexterity to AC and wisdom/charisma to AC bonuses.

Don’t listen to anyone who says a monk dip for crane style is bad or suboptimal. They are wrong. It’s the height of power gaming in KM and is the core investment for the strongest front line builds. Although it loses some of its upside for tank builds that wear plate, which are weaker builds overall, it’s still optimal even in those builds.

Just a heads up. You may want to make this character as Mercenary added character and not necessarily your main to become the baron. There are quite a few times that your main will have Charisma skill conversation options that only they can pass or fail not have the option for another party member to try the check. Not totally major but I’m regretting playing a dwarf with only 8 charisma as my main.

Unfortunately my plan doesn’t work, because i can’t select the vivisectionist as second class on level up! Alchemist is the only class, where I can’t choose an archetyp! The game always sets it to grenadier and i can’t change it. So it seems to be another bug. All other archetypes are working as far as I can tell.

I don’t have the console version to try…

totally agree that crane style is an exceptional feat, im not denying that and with crane wing later…most excellent. nor am i denying that defensive fighting is not crucial for frontliners.
if a +4 to ac does not help you not get hit then whats the point fighting defensively and taking that penalty to hit? and thus even having crane style? its all about whether you are going to stack AC or not
as you say imperative for frontliners, but also you must stack ac or defensive fighting is not going to help and i never mentioned frontliners in my post just characters in general. yes jaeth should have a reach weapon and amiri should be enlarged but apart from that would you spend a monk level on either of them? or crane style? OP never mentioned being a frontliner and if hes not and/or not going to stack AC monk level splash will not help him/her

a human level 1 fighter could easily go dodge, imp unarmoured and crane style at level 1
a non human fighter could do the same in at level 2 without "wasting feats as they get one every single level
totally agree a monk dip is worth it for non fighter types (and aldori defender who doesnt get as many bonus feats as other fighters and is probs going to be unarmoured and really needs to spend early feats on aldori defense, weapon finesse and slashing grace etc for example)
but is it worth it for a fighter who gets 20 feats? IMO it is not (this like every other one is just my opinion) for fighters i wouldnt want to slow down progression with a monk splash when 2 measily feats out of 20 will do it
even if just taking a “few” fighter levels thats alot of bonus feats
look at all the above builds by mork, none took monk dip and instead spent feats to get crane style and still ran out of feats to choose by end

a human fighter for example, tower shield spec at level 3 could have crane style (and imp unarmed ofcourse), dodge, heavy armour pro and shield pro.
same character fighter 2/monk 1 could have exactly the same +1 extra feat which wont the pure fighter will make up next level
the pure fighter will achieve no penalty to hit with tower shield 1 level faster and will always have a higher AC due to armour/shield training 1 level higher too.
so all opinions but i wouldnt want to slow down my heavy armour tanks progression with a monk level. same with 2 handed fighter hit those +1 to hit and damage faster
alddor defender or unarmoured fighter on the other hand, totally would

the way hit bonus’ have been applied in this game if you are not stacking AC the extra +1 bonus to AC from crane wing is irrelevant and the -2 to hit from defensive fighting instead of -4 is completely moot if you are not using defensive fighting, which you should not obviously if it doesnt help ac
fodder its not necessary, the tough monsters it wont help unless AC has been stacked hard
for example i definitely should have it on valerie (i fucked up and kept forgetting to pick it should of done at level 5 or even 3, now level 7 and still forgot sigh, will respec when its fixed for xbox) and have definitely taken for my main who is aldori defender/monk/duelist and is approaching valeries ac
for say jaeth and amiri, not worth it at all. not worth taking feats nor is it worth taking a monk dip. the +4 to AC for them is not going to make a single point of difference.
eg jaeth has an armour class of 23, 27AC vs enraged bla blah owlbears or venomhodanks (which im fighting at moment) makes absolutely zero difference.
those creatures only missed on a 1 against jaeth/am if they had crane style and turned on defensive fighting according to the their attack they would still only miss on a 1 hell even if they had crane wing and another +4 to ac that means those creatures would still only need a 5 to hit.
valerie on the other hand, who has stacked AC, this makes a major difference they go from needing a 13 to hit to a 16 (11 and 14 on flanking) thats most definitely worth it and if i hadnt fucked up and forgotten to choose crane wing would be a 17, although honestly i would totally pick it for that +2 bonus to hit making def fighting more manageable at -2 instead of -4. although again thse creatures have low AC and she didnt have too much worry hitting even with a -4, though yep -2 would be mucho better.

im not denying the power of crane style nor the 1 dip monk splash for it
all im saying is the way this game stacks hit bonus its all AC or bust
and for the fighter types with so many feats it may not be worth it to splash rather tahn feat
for valerie it meant hitting the no penalty to attack with tower shield at level 5. you would get that one level later with a monk splash. made a big difference to val at level 5
and ofcourse the +1 to max dex in armour, and the no move penalty in heavy armour will come faster without the 1 splash in monk.

a fighter, 2 handed fighter and tower shield specialist gets 20 feats, 20! i would rather say for val spend 2 feats (improved unarmed at 4 and crane style at 5 or imp unarmed at 2 crane style at 3, is crane style on the bonus fighter feat list by the way as could pick it one of them instead?) and hit the class progression earlier
and honestly what is 2 feats spent out of 20?

non magic full plate gives an armour bonus of 9 which you can get a start of game, you would need a wis/cha of 28 to achieve that or wis/cha of 26 with bracers AC1, which is all thats available at start of game
or a +6 to dex and a +4 to wis/cha or vice versa, inwhich none of these builds have (extra +1 needed on dex as fullplate has +1max dex)
none of the builds above have anywhere near the dex + wis or cha to beat full plate even with gear
depends on your stats. if you going to stack dex and wis/cha then yep armour is not as good as unarmoured if you are not it isnt.
my main is 10,18,10,14,10,18 as such absolutely benefits from monk dip and fighting unarmoured. eventually will out AC valerie but even starting with those high defensive stats putting points into dex on level up and wearing a +dex belt and a +cha headband snd with an extra +1 defensive fighting due to keep forgetting to pick for valerie, valerie has +5 higher ac than main +4 higher when both are defensive fighting
valerie does not have the stats to ever beat full plate + tower shield,

i agree with all your points on crane wing being powerful and excellent even op as you say, all my tank/frontliners in both my PC and xbox run have it (except val on xbox i keep forgetting!!!) and all my beneath the stolen land run and i would never not get it. but may no need monk splash for it. neither valerie in main games or any of my tower shield specialists in the beneath the stolen land runs miss it nor would get any use out of a monk splash.
my highest stolen land runs so far my sword and board full plate wearing tower specialists are still the highest AC characters in my groups, eventually my stacked AC unarmoured monk splash tanks will overtake but still not yet

all im saying about crane style is 3 things really, if you are not stacking AC its not worth it, it is only worth it on characters where a +4 to ac from fighting defensively will actually give them a chance of not getting hit, if it doesnt or if it say means they only need a 4 to hit instead of a 2 then its not, and not worth the -2 to hit. the tough enemies in this game have such a high attack bonus medium or so AC is pretty much the same as none and defensive fighting + crane style is not going to help that.

2nd, this is very very very personal opinion but for high feat classes, especially fighters a monk splash is not worth it as 2 feats out of 20, at level 1 you could have it and if a human fighter you could have it and another feat. especially if going armoured and as OP’er said he not min maxing and wants to RP with medium armour. monk splash wouldnt be worth it for the monk stuff (+ac) and with all the fighter bonus feats, including he/she could start the game with crane style at level 1, a monk splash it not worth it for crane style in my opinion for this character. in which he could also reach fighter goals faster and alchemist goals and spells faster.

and i keep seeing it referred to as +4 ac, not just here but everywhere and it doesnt it gives an extra +1 to AC when fighting defensively which equals +4 (+2 from defensive fighting +1 from 3 ranks mobility +1 from crane style)
the most important thing about crane wing is not the +1 to AC it gives through defensive fighting (although nothing to be sneezed at every little bit helps when AC stacking) its the +2 bonus to hit, meaning you only suffering -2 to hit instead of -4
and eveywhere i also see “everyone needs crane style!!” no everyone does not, only frontline tanks do. it is a must for them but you must stack AC and whether its worth a monk splash or gained through feat progression depends on character

sorry this ones even longer sigh

Lol, neither Jaethal nor Amiri can take monk levels.

I agree that a fighter can skip the monk level because (a) they have lots of feats, especially a human; (b) they don’t benefit from the monk robe because they will likely wear armor; and © they are quite strong in the early levels and therefore don’t need crane style as fast as possible (vs a MAD dexterity tank who can’t buy plate armor by lvl 2-3); and (d) I don’t believe that they benefit from having a second stat (wisdom/charisma) convert to AC like dexterity. I think fighter 1/monk 1 is still better than fighter 2 because you’ll have more usable feats in those first levels and you won’t lose any BAB, but it’s a very small difference.

That said, you should not build an armor-based tank in PF: KM. Dexterity is the way to go because it boosts your touch armor class and will likely deal a lot more damage in the long-run. That’s too bad…I really like the armor tank as a concept. I even suggested pre-alpha that Owlcat change fighters and armor feats to give them passive DR and crit reduction as their strength and level and AC from armor scale to create a new tanking style that was based on eliminating crits and then having a very high DR, but that hasn’t happened (obviously). That’s too bad because it would create two tanking options that would be better at different types of encounters, with dexterity tanks being better against enemies that have fewer attacks for more damage, but armor tanks being better against enemies who relied upon more attacks with lower damage per hit.

yeah totally agree, dex based tanks will be far better in long run
and agree its a shame, really like armour tank too and i hate seeing all that magic armour loot go to waste heh
its been weird watching fighters go from best tanks in early editions of d&d to some of the worst in later editions.

the only really good thing about armour tank is the flat foot AC is still very high, until the dex based (and other stat based) can get uncanny dodge or robe of eyes etc m
might have a go with a rogue/monk/aldori defender/duelist 4/1/9/6 to get uncanny dodge early next time round, see how that goes. can just try it out in beneath the stolen lands

val for example is pretty much undefeatable at start of game, except for the amount of 20s the enemies seem to roll haha

@WiseRaven
well yeah obviously, i was just using their builds as a point. we all know their builds and with the wall of text i already had i could substitute 2 words (amiri and jaethal) instead of a whole nother wall of text in explaining a similar build but “lawful” so can take monk levels