Fewer Innappropriate Immunities, please

Seriously, I’m trying to play an enchanter Bard and it seems like every single big foe I encounter is immune to pretty much every spell I have in my arsenal. I can get some specific bosses needing to be immune to prevent trivialization, but I set out to make a control character and instead I feel almost completely pointless - and its due to things like Nalfeshnee having immune to Mind Affecting… for no reason? Its not on their statblock for normal Pathfinder.

Perhaps instead of complete immunity, give them that Mythic ability that was created for the game that downgrades disables to the next, less crippling step - but at least, don’t have me wasting spells that I built my character around.

5 Likes

This was an issue in P:K as well (even more so due to all the Undead) but it was solvable by supplementing your Enchantments with Evocation which your late game levels give you in several varieties. Stun is a very powerful control effect as well with very few foes being immune.

I appreciate that Enchantment here isn’t just an I win button and that you need to vary your approach.

The main difference, in my mind, is that as an experienced Pathfinder player I can account for things like Undead. I know what they’re immune to, and I know what works.

I set out this time knowing what Demons were immune and vulnerable to in large part, only to find that for some reason unnamed Nalfeshnees and Mariliths are inexplicably immune - not to something limited like Compulsion, or Fear - but Mind Affecting, and all spells with that tag.

Its just frustrating.

3 Likes

I just realized that Embers slumber worked on Zombies, even though their description says “immune to sleep” among other things. I reported this as bug.

Did you test if the immuneties are really there?

Makes sense. Might be a little too easy if they were all vulnerable to the same thing. Now a few more CN foes for Paladins and Clerics to deal with would also be interesting.

My complaints are based on the general experience of casting a spell on something that I believe should be vulnerable to that spells based on years of GMing Pathfinder, only for the combat log to indicate they are immune. Inspecting them at that point generally reveals an extensively expanded immunity list.

Witch Hexes appear to currently bypass a LOT of defenses creatures should normally have, in addition to the defenses they should be bypassing (like SR). On the other hand, we don’t have Ability Focus - Hexes, either, so I’m calling it a wash ATM for testing purposes… :wink:

Yes, Owlcat has a few (not many in the great scheme of things) ideas of their own that often rub veteran PnPers the wrong way. I tend to see Owlcat’s perspective. They have to fight the mighty reload somehow.

I also appreciate the devaluing of I win buttons. Varying challenges is the best way to accomplish that even when, especially when, it confounds one’s expectations. This is why Nenio has both Illusion and Evo focus.

Edit for Clarification:
The changes that they’ve made are kinda pointless, I can find a hundred different ways to trivialize or otherwise annihilate the challenges, and some of them are extremely unbalanced. The boss fights are usually a joke, then there’s some random enemy or group of enemies that just instantly wipes the party. I don’t mind fights that are absolutely crushing, but they gotta balance em out with easier ones, personally the boss should be something that takes strategy, not just me dumping all my enhancement buffs, and then watching as the PC (or previously Seelah) just takes it all on singlehandedly.

I mean, oh noes they’re immune to mind-affects

Meanwhile my character with over 40 AC uses Trip, causing the mighty monster to fall over and be instantly killed by all the Attack of Opportunities

Or a certain big demon that got basically oneshot by Wend, over 140 damage on the first hit in the ground, followed by some other very large numbers, trivialized foe when it can’t hit me and then you got a bunch of other op characters not in my party joining the fight for some reason

Meanwhile, a few encounters earlier I went into a room just before where I found the owner of a sword people like to (silly-ily) sell, and encounter like a half dozen winged fiends and a couple of casters, which managed to kill the rest of the party excluding my PC with 40 AC, Magic Immunity, a Lich with Vamp Blade and a bunch of other crap active. It took like 10 tries for me to beat the fight without anybody dying, given that I had lost another character that up until a point in 3 had been my full-caster healer >:(.

So while the boss may be immune to Mind Affects, I can summon 100+ undead, immediately trip him, then watch as he instantly dies. A sizable dragon countered this strategy by simply burning em all away, but if it ain’t got AoE, it gonna die.

I’ve since learned that the ‘Immunity to Mind Affecting’ is likely an overly broad application of the ‘Unholy Aura’ ability, which would actually provide this benefit against Good characters.

Its probably due to the new Mythic Paths. Trickster’s Improved Trick for Persuasion is to make anyone who is Demoralized Paralyzed instead with a massive DC (10+ Persuasion Rank).

So yeah with greater power comes greater challenges. Remember the original PnP adventure was not balanced around these Mythic Paths.

So uh…Dazzling Display?

I mean there are a few others that would make that very broken

Trickster does not need even that. The regular Persuasion trick (that you need to get to unlock the improved version) makes enemies take an Intimidation check as soon as they enter combat with you.

You basically auto paralyze anything that isn’t immune at the start of every fight.

I dread to see what the Greater Persuasion trick is.

That’s some…uh interesting balance there

Meanwhile my Aldori Duelist had to take off their armor to be a Lich (I know this is supposed to be fixed in the long-term), and then run around for like 50 hours to get to the point of useful spells

Due to its absurdly limited spell slots, even with dumping all the Mythic Increased Spell Slots, and garbage-tier DC’s for abilities, I only slot things that bypass saves / spell resist, or that are buffs, and can’t even afford space for Summons

I turned Ember into a Mystic Theurge Summoner, was dropping like 100+ skeletons, then popping the Lich AoE False Life + Haste on them…basically that Minas Tirith fight in LOTR.

Having just thought about it, if they wanted to make Lich truly epic, they should let you resurrect a dragon that’s the center of an Act 3 quest.

Once you’ve killed it, you gain the option to try and resurrect it. While you are successful, its will is too strong for you to domineer, and it almost goes on a rampage before Zacharias appears and subdues it. Impressed, he takes it upon himself to begin the process of crushing its will to serve you for the time being. (For balance and lore purposes probably best to hold off on the dragon at this point in the game)

Act IV when you get into some trouble, Zacharias honors his promise about the dragon, and his oaths to train you, by sending the dragon through a portal to help you. After Combat, you are given a choice to either keep the dragon or your skeletal companion as your pet, the other will wait for you at camp (may require a bit of coding).

Dragon would have a unique class structure as it levels, and should also have a magical ability to shrink or return to true size as a standard action (aka fits through door mode vs terrifying monster mode).

Makes more sense to have a dragon as your pet, than to be able to summon a dragon. Would be balanced by the fact that by Act IV that dragon is comparatively weak, likely equivalent or inferior to most animal companions (I know that most enemies in IV would be able to murder the dragon).

I feel the same, Casters are somewhat fucked, if u not casting only buffs for your Teammates.
How about physical damage immunities for some Enemies someone?

Look at spells that say, “not affected by target’s spell resistance”. Grease is one for example.
At level 9 or 10 you will be able to raise Spell Penetration with Mythic Feat enough so that casting spells on Demons will become reliable enough.
After act 3 you will find even items that raise Spell penetration. In act 4 I even got item and now my Daeran has 56 Spell Penetration for Necromancy spells.

I honestly feel like Azata’s the way to go if you want to play an offensive caster (debuffs or otherwise). Some of the SR is a bit ridiculous and free re-rolls with the Spell Penetration feat chains is pretty amazing as a counter to that.

Lich could also be good with the spell book merge and Spell Penetration feat chain because of the increased CL, but it would probably come into its own later than Azata (since you can grab Favorable Magic relatively early).

But, yeah, the mind-affecting immunity is more than a bit overused. I usually like playing Enchantment Wizards and that’s going to make things a pain.

Swarm/Dragon/Legend might change some of this, but those are so late (supposedly) that they aren’t really relevant to early/mid game.

I wonder if some of the paths should have some way around some immunities.

Lich for example should be able to pierce undead mind immunity.

I am curious about Trickster’s Greater Persusion Trick as well.

Ascendant Element to ignore an elemental immunity is a Mythic Ability.

Something to ignore ‘immune to mind affecting’ on Demons (or maybe even all creatures) would be in line…

The aeon mythic path possesses decent ways to nullify/reduce immunities of chaotic enemies. And later on will also grant their companions similar passive abilities as well.

Both dirge bards and sorcerers of the undead bloodline also can influence the minds of undead via enchantment spells meant for humanoids. So having a Lich Power doing the same thing might be worthy to add, if not already on the dev table.