Demon mythic path is joke! Need to be fix!

I’m really sorry to say that, because I find the concept of playing as a demon incredibly appealing, but at the moment, the demon mythic path is completely useless. Compared to other mythics, the demon has nothing that is… good. Literally the only reason anyone would want to play a demon is a story. There is nothing else. Whatever a demon can do, other mythic paths can do much better. Let’s look at a small comparison:

  1. ANGEL
    a) Can merge spell book.
    b) The best and strongest buffs in the game.
    c) Pretty good attack spells.
    d) Extremely strong passive effect.
    f) Sword of heaven, probably the best and strongest spell in the whole game (and can be made practically permanent and for the whole group).

It doesn’t matter if you are a caster, melee fighter or hybrid.
Angel is just extremely OP…

  1. TRICKSTER
    a) Incredibly versatile mythic path.
    b) Extremely large skill bonuses.
    c) Unlimited use of magical items and unlimited healing (from wands).
    d) Sneak attack and sneak attack healing.
    f) Extremely powerful bonuses for all found magic items (power lvl is insame).
    g) Quite average, but incredibly original spells for every occasion.
    h) During the rest you get random magic items. Some are end-game items and you can get them REALLY soon.

Often overlooked, but probably the second strongest mythic path (right after the angel).

  1. LICH
    a) Can merge spell book.
    b) Can revive enemy bosses as companions.
    c) Very good immunities.
    d) The strongest attack spells.
    f) Two extra companions (one regular + skeletal champion).

If you want a pure strong magic power, this is the best choice.
Although not very suitable for hybrids or melee fighters.

  1. AZATA
    a) Strong dragon companion.
    b) Superpowers.
    c) Much stronger version of bard’s songs.
    d) Average spells, but useful buffs.

Slightly above average mythic path with no specific focus, although superpowers are very strong and offer something for each class, which can lead to really strong builds. And own dragon is very cool.

  1. AEON
    a) Best immunities.
    b) He also gives immunities to companions.

Aeon is the second weakest mythic path right now. Enforcing Gaze and Aeon Bane they are not bad things, but they are simply not particularly strong. Definitely not when compared to the crazy bonuses offered by the previous mythic path. The same goes for his spells. Nothing extra good. If you ask me, Aeon should also get quite a significant power boost if you want him to be a regular choice when choosing a mythic path.

  1. DEMON
    a) Demon has nothing…

Demon is a large collection of various things that look good on paper, but do not work in real life and are practically useless. In addition, I could not find a class for which the demon would be suitable. Let’s take a look at his abilities.

Demon Spells - There are a few useful spells, but nothing strong or extra good.

Demonic Rage - Even at the highest level, it’s not as good as the passive effects that an Azata, Angel or trickster gets. And did I mention that it can only be used 2-4 times a day? In a game where rest is severely limited. Ridiculous…

Demonic Aspect - You get a whole bunch of them, but it’s completely useless. Their effect is very small and you can only use two at a time (maybe three at the end of the game, I’m not sure). So you only choose 2-3 which are at least a little useful (I forgot to say that their bonus does not stack) and although you will get about 10 more, you will never use them. There is also a secondary effect if you have active demonic rage, but nothing extra. Not even five active demonic aspects are as good as one Azata superpower.

Demonic Forms - And here’s what we’ve all been waiting for! The reason why people chose a demon! Ability to transform into a real demon! And the right feat will allow the transformation to last 24 hours! This will be awesome! But unfortunately it is not…

Demonic Forms are the biggest disappointments on the whole demon mythic path. I’ve already talked about it in another topic ( Demonic Forms ) , so I’ll just say it briefly. Demonic Forms are not suitable for any classes.

Caster and demonic form - Because your armor was destroyed during the transformation, your AC has been reduced. This is the last thing the caster wants, because the caster does not have very high AC even without transformation. Your weapon was also destroyed and you get claws, or some weak +1 weapon. A caster with low AC and no decent weapon skills is definitely not someone you would send to fight at close range. So for him, demonic forms are completely useless.

Fighter and demonic form - If you are an archer, stay away from demonic forms. All demon forms fight only at close range. If you are melee class, also stay away from demonic forms. For starters, you will lose armor which will reduce your AC. This is never good news for a melee class. You will also lose your weapon, which is even worse. Not only that all demonic weapons are complete junk, but you will also lose all your weapon talents and specializations. So your fighting skills will suffer badly with this transformation.

So like I said, demon forms aren’t really useful to anyone…

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CONCLUSION

I personally suggest three changes that can save demon mythic path.

1) Unlimited Demonic Rage - The effect is not so strong that it cannot be permanent.
Especially when compared to the permanent effects of other mythic paths.
2) Demonic Aspect - All effects should be passive, stackable and permanent.
Even then, it will be barely at the level of azata or angel.
3) Demonic Forms - We must be able to use our own weapons. At least in the case of demons who use weapons. If Balor uses a long sword, is it really so unimaginable that he could also use a scimitar or a bastard sword? More details here: ( Demonic Forms )

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How does this work? Casters tend not to wear armor (arcane casters at least). Does the transformation remove your bracers of armor?

I’m not so concerned with how Demon compares to other Mythic Paths as this is a single player game, but I agree it should at least be able to make good use of its own abilities.

Demonic Rage should definitely have more uses and either be unlimited or become unlimited with the Limitless Rage Mythic Ability.

I like the idea of having many different aspects, but would like to be able to have more if not all active at the same time. I agree that the abilities that are only active during Demonic Rage should always be active unless it directly pertains to Raging.

The Demonic Forms definitely sound like the biggest problem. Either let us use our own weapon or temporarily apply our weapon feats to the weapon wielded by the demon (Preferably the former as we will likely have a weapon with additional bonuses or effects).

4 Likes

Hopefully, the Devil Path does not share the same detriments as the Demon Path.

Priest, Druid, Kinetic, Bard, Alchemist, Shaman, Oracle…
You need at least bracers of armor +6 to balance the loss of armor a little, and even then you are damaged by its loss. And as I said before, especially mages have very strong robes with good effects that you will lose.

Amen my brother :smiley:

Although in the pen and paper version I would definitely choose devil, in this game the demon is much more attractive (from a story point of view), because you will meet a lot of them and even visit the Abyss.

Anyway, I’m very pessimistic about the real changes in the demon mythic path. The release will be in a month and I think that the real change can come a few weeks after the release, when people start complaining about it on steam and this forum.

But I’m sure change will come.
The demon mythic path is too obvious an oversight.

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Imho demonpath should get unique interaction with other base classes. When ohter mythics like angel merge spellbooks, demons shoud merge class abilities
So i woud give him powerful stackable muations or transformations (maybe permanent buffs like u said) and he shoud get a power up on rage abilities /Skalds,Barbar,Bloodrager), so more attack etc… maybe some mythic rage powers. (I can imagine sth like a
So instead of casters you have a mythic class dedicated to strong melee fighter and barbarians.

Demons have a unique interaction with rage classes. The issue is that it’s not a good one because of how limited demonic rage is.

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From my testing demon form just needs something different.

The main Demonic damage buff should just be a unique huge buff to STR or DEX, that way it works with many builds or with any weapon type.

As mentioned earlier, demonic forms should be more like the ‘fiery body’ or ‘ice body’ spells, in that you are still you - but you have different aspects, like big claws grow, horns grow, wings & tail etc. That way you can keep the baseline model & weapons but add in all that jazz and fire/demonic effects.

There should be a skill which boosts weapon damage & one for unarmed/natural attack damage you can decide between - maybe more abilities which interact with the different combat manouvers.

As it stands I didn’t enjoy the demon path at all.

I agree that demon looks bad.

So I would say:

  • demonic rage:
    If you already have rage it stacks with it (in terms of duration and getting more powerful) and you get another +1 bonus with a combined rage level (rage from class + demon rage) 25 and 30 each. Players without rage get rage (but not rage powers) as if they were a barbarien. You get less demonic aspects but all of them are permanently active while raging. With a mystic feat rage can be made permanent. You can cast spells while using demonic rage.

  • transformation:
    You get stat bonusses, resistances and in some cases special abilities depending on the demon you chose. You keep your equipment (especially weapons) if that kind of demon can use such equipment. You should also be able to use ranged weapons then.
    Alternative: The natural attacks of your demon form profit from the weapon specific feats/abilities of your class has (like weapon specialisation and improved crit) and your natural attacks improve with mystic level so they become +5 weapons at some point.

  • You should have some interesting options when interacting with demons.

Demon would be most useful for martial classes and you would not weaken yourself any more when using it. Angels have fantastic buffs and one azata power gives permanent +10 AB and damage ( not stacking with other morale bonus but still good) so it does not sound too powerful.

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I like that Owlcat did “fix” some of the “lower” Demonic Aspects in Beta 3. They looked far worse in Beta 2. So that’s a plus.

It is also ensuring to know that the Demon Path will eventually get a “proper” teleportation ability outside of its mythic spellbook: Demonic Charge seemingly allows for unlimited teleporting. And once the player teleports up front to an enemy, said ability will also trigger an AoE attack with unholy damage. Will be quite fun, I imagine. Or at least once its “0 ft. range” bug is fixed. Still damages the enemy of course. But said bug won’t let the player move even an inch. sigh

Demonic Aspects will become quite nice and powerful. Especially upon reaching Major Demonic Aspects, which grant permanent untyped +6 stat boni. Depending on the aspect in question. Or damage reduction N/-. Needless to say those apply even outside of Demonic Rage. Which makes one wonder just how powerful Demon Lord Aspects will be in the future. Looking forward to it. :slight_smile:

Another pleasant surprise is that Demonic Forms now properly work with Master Shapechanger. Though the Brown-Fur Transmuter’s Share Transmutation still doesn’t appear to work with said mythic polymorph spells. Ah, well… hopefully Owlcat will come around this one during later beta builds.

The greatest hurdle the Demon Path faces is its microscopic amount of Demonic Rage uses. Maxing out at 4 uses per rest is too few. By far. This could be easily fixed by changing the way it’s calculated to the Demon Path’s mythic level +1. And maybe also provide the choice to further enhance its usages via taking Mythic Abilities. Paying a slot in exchange for an Demonic Rage upgrade would still be better than what we have now.

Another thing bugging me is that Demonic Claws do nothing other than providing yet another natural attack. It doesn’t even count as a magical weapon or as cold iron. Very unlike to the gore attack from Close to the Abyss. At the very least I would expect the Demon’s weapons and natural attacks to count as both Evil and Chaotic. Or as weapons with the Unholy trait.

6 Likes

Indeed, Demons feature heavily in this Adventure Path/Game in such a way that the Fey do in Kingmaker (damnable chaotic outsiders). The main appeal the Demon Path has for me is the story content, unique interactions with other Demons, and interesting features/abilities that Demons have, otherwise I would ignore them outright and focus on the other Mythic Paths.
For a game to feature Devils heavily, I would love to see the next game be a mishmash of Hell’s Rebels and Hell’s Vengeance, where you can choose after the first Act to support Cheliax or the rebels and even work as a double agent or even work entirely for yourself.

Yup, was pretty excited about the Demon MP and its forms but after seeing them in-game…NOPE! Honestly, if you want real changes to the game and how it works, you’ve gotta post in their VK group (Vkontakte being Russian facebook more or less). Otherwise, pray that someone mods this game’s MPs.
Modders, I summon thee!
I really hope someone at Owlcat reads the forums, but from what I’ve seen so far, I very much doubt it.
Here’s their VK group: Pathfinder CRPG—Wrath of the Righteous|Kingmaker | ВКонтакте
Create an account and message the staff that admins the account or comment on their posts in english. I bet a few dozen english comments will have an effect… :wink:

Owlcat does recognize the forum and we even have a very active discord community, where in length people talked about demon path. Kami even said they changed some abilities.

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I am very pleasantly surprised at how much people largely share my opinion. :cowboy_hat_face:
Maybe eventually we will be loud enough for us to enforce some changes even before release.

There is an ability for class Shapeshifter that allows you to use armor even if you are polymorphed. As for weapons, I think the authors kind of assumed that if you have a humanoid form with hands that can hold weapons, you can use whatever weapons you want.

Wild Melding

At 11th level the shapeshifter treats all armor and shields that she wears as if they had the Wild special ability. If the form the shapeshifter takes while wild shaped would normally be able to wear armor the shapeshifter may choose to have the armor transform to fit the new shape instead of meld. If taken off the armor will revert to it’s original form.

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Then there is also feats that are intended for druids.
Unfortunately, none of the druid’s forms are able to use weapons, but if they could, I bet this feat would do exactly what we would need for a demon mythic path.

Weapon Shift

Your melee weapons meld into your animal form.

Prerequisite(s): Wild shape class feature.

Benefit(s): When you use your wild shape ability, any melee weapons you are wielding and proficient with meld into your new form. Select one of these weapons; while in your new form, your natural attacks deal the same damage type as that weapon. Your natural attacks also gain all of the weapon’s properties (such as disarm), other than the double weapon property and the fragile weapon property; moreover, when using this feat to grant the trip property to your natural attacks, you gain a +2 bonus on combat maneuver checks to trip an enemy, but you cannot drop your weapon to avoid being tripped due to a failed trip attempt. Weapon Shift does not apply a magic weapon’s enhancement bonus to your natural attacks, nor does it grant your natural attacks any of a weapon’s magical special abilities.

Improved Weapon Shift

When you change forms, your natural attacks take on not just the physical properties of your weapons, but their magical abilities as well.

Prerequisite(s): Weapon Shift, base attack bonus +6, wild shape class feature.

Benefit(s): When you apply a melee weapon’s damage type and properties to your natural attacks using the Weapon Shift feat, your natural attacks also gain the weapon special abilities of the weapon, such as the flaming special ability.

Improved Weapon Shift does not apply the dancing special ability or any special abilities limited to thrown or ranged weapons, and it does not apply the weapon’s enhancement bonuses to your attacks.

Greater Weapon Shift

In animal form, your natural attacks are as deadly as the weapons you were holding.

Prerequisite(s): Improved Weapon Shift, Weapon Shift, base attack bonus +8, wild shape class feature.

Benefit(s): When you apply a melee weapon’s damage type and properties to your natural attacks using the Weapon Shift feat, your natural attacks also gain an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls equal to the enhancement bonus (if any) of the weapon.

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I think something like that would be a good feat that would fix all the problems with Demonic Forms.
Or it could be part of a feat Master Shapechanger.

Something like:

““Your weapons and armor will take the form that is typical for given being. Although the appearance of the equipment will change, it will retain all its characteristics and the weapons (if the new form can use weapons) are still considered the same type as before the transformation.””

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Giving more rounds of demonic rage and making it compatible with the perma-rage feat that works for everyone else is probably a good move.
Second, all transformations are typically junk vor various reasons. A viable - but unfortunately too work-intensive - way would be to have the demon-player design his demonform like a character when he gets access to it. This could include weapons, if handled by a point value, which would solve most problems. The demon form is practically a second character he can turn into. Gear that cannot be worn by the form is absorbed (probably armor, boots, etc.), the rest works.

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I think that here is main difference between demonic and druid transformation.

When a druid changes his form, he is still a druid, but in the form of an animal. In the case of a demon transformation, it’s the other way around. We are constantly demon, but in the form of a human (or other race you choose). Transformation only allows our essence to take a more appropriate form. A druid may cease to be an animal, but we cannot cease to be a demon. Even if we don’t look like one of them right now.

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I have to disagree, their personnel took offense at suggestions.

Demon definitely needs a full rework, unless this is a really old build, I think it’ll be mostly DOA on launch.

Youre right. I didnt claim demon path is ok.

I only went against the statement owlcat doesnt recognize the forum. They do. All these patches were proof of it, but my post is 2 weeks old. Now i ask myself, why demon path is still underwhelming.