Demon Mythic Path Breakdown

Ok, so, having now played a Demon into act 4 (and tested it on top of several base classes), I’ve found it to be generally very weak mechanically (as others have observed) with several fundamental flaws that make it “less fun” than the much stronger paths I’ve tried. I’m going to go through and try and identify the specific issues, and how I think they could be (easily) fixed.

In my honest estimation, this path needs significant work to be made “fun” to play in comparison to Angel or Azata, or even trickster. This was the first character I gave up on Playful Darkness with, as I simply didn’t have the tools to deal with it.

I dont think that’s unattainable, even this close to release.

Demonic Rage -

For something that is supposed to feel like the “iconic” thing for this path, it sure is a gigantic letdown as it stands. Power wise, it feels about equivalent to the Angels Holy Sword and Angelic Halo - both SECONDARY Benefits of Angel, next to its God Tier spellcasting - yet it is MUCH more limited in application than both. Both of those comparable abilities are essentially “Permanent” by Mythic Rank 5, which is where Demonic Rage is just barely beginning to become better than a buffed barbarian Rage that works for casters.

The Azata equivalent, Super Powers, are just straight up always in and just as good (generously stated - theyre arguably much stronger, at least early on, than Demonic rage).

Suggestion - At the very, very least this ability needs to be usable in most encounters to feel even remotely “Good”.

If this were an “always on” ability, suddenly it’s combat math abilities and customization via Demonic Aspects feels “with it” in comparison to the static bonuses of other paths.

Honestly, removing the limited usage on this ability probably goes a long way toward making this path fun.

Demonic Aspects - These are a cool idea, but underutilized. Part of that is because their combat bonuses are tied to Demonic Rage. Part of that is because they don’t do quite enough.

Suggestions - First and foremost, move the first of these to Mythic Rank 3. Theres no valid reason for waiting for this, and the path will feel massively better, sooner.

Second, move Demon Form OUT of the Mythic spell list, and make it an essentially at will benefit of choosing an Aspect. Succubus aspect should come with Succubus Form, and you should be able to walk around in it. Even if it’s just visual, I think this will make the path feel much better. That said, theres no reason each of these can’t can’t with a +4 polymorph stat bonus for the creatures iconic stat.

Demon Mythic Spells - Spells for this Mythic Path are… OK I suppose. As Demons tend to be a bit magic-using heavy, these help sell the “player fantasy” of being a Demon in a big way.

Suggestion- The biggest issue I have here is how quickly you get spells - if Demons aren’t going to get a merged spellbook, I think their Mythic spell progression should be more aggressive, such that you’re able to do things like Teleport at the beginning of act 4, where it will feel pretty Demonic to be doing so in Alushynrra.

Additional spells would be awesome here, but honestly I don’t feel like this is nearly the deal breaker as the paths other issues. More spells, sooner I think is the proper fix.

Summary - Currently, while the Demon concept and story is pretty strong* (edited, the story is pretty good), by comparison to other Mythic Paths its kindof crappy to actually play. It feels weak and limited, where others feel powerful and epic. It also currently kindof fails to hit the “class fantasy” of the concept because of all these limitations, and the fact that’s “late to the party” on its coolest abilities. I think with even minor tweaks, this path could be “brought up to speed” so to speak - but it desperately needs these minor tweaks.

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I agree with most of what you said.
Demon is a weakest of all mythic classes right now.

I consider the main problem to be the fact that it has no strong iconic ability.
Whatever the demon does, other mythic classes do much better.

Demonic aspects + Demonic rage, even if their use was unlimited, their power is barely at the level Azata superpowers or permanent angelic sword (not to mention the angelic halo).

Demonic forms should have been the flagship of the whole demon mythic path…
The result is a complete failure…
I don’t want to write the same thing again, so I’m referring to a topic where I talk about it in more depth.
https://forum.owlcatgames.com/t/demon-forms-without-automatic-weapon-replacement/38685

Demonic spells are… average in terms of comparison with other mythic path. But they have one extreme weakness. Piles of spells that have other mythic paths can be made “permanent” (24 hours duration). Extremely powerful combat buffs or protection spells. The demon has nothing like that, which makes him very weak (and I won’t even talk about not being able to merge a spellbook).

And why the hell are demon spells dependent on charisma?

Honestly, I don’t think the current demon mythic path can be saved.
Too many things are broken and they would have to completely redo almost everything.
Unfortunately, I don’t think the owlcat will devote so much time to the demon, so this whole mythic path will probably remain bad joke :pensive:

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He can be perma self hasted. He has Blood Haze that works like extended Haste, which you can extend to be 24h haste on lvl 7 of mythic. That is kinda far of though and only available after act 4.
It has extend mechanic with each kill, I wonder if you manage to extend it beyond 5 minutes if it will become 24h.

As a note, Charisma has always been an iconic stat for Demons - it makes a lot of sense to tie their spells to it.

Agree. The demonic MP should be more aggressive and brutal than other MP, because this is the point of choosing the path of Rage. I’ll take the demon path for the first playthrough anyway, but I hope the players will be heeded.

Irrelevant.
In pen and paper pathfinder is the charisma main stat even for angels and yet their mythic path in WotR is focused on wisdom.

I would say Charisma makes perfect sense. It’s the ability score that supports Persuasion, both in sense of being able to beguile (Succubus) and to Intimidate (physically imposing demons).

“Charisma measures a character’s personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance.”

For casters who use Charisma I think this represents the forcefulness of personality that allows them to control the arcane forces of their bloodlines (Sorcerer, Bloodrager) or act as an instrument of divine will (Paladin) through faith in the deity.

“Impulsive and irrepressible, Demons do as they please with no regard for the opinion of others.
The Demon is the epitome of rage; a little push is all that is needed to break their self-control and turn them into a force to be feared—by enemies and friends alike.”

The description of the Demon MP does seem to suggest to me that their power is in large part derived from the forcefulness of their personality, which I would say aligns with Charisma being the ability score their spells rely on.

I definitely agree with what you wrote about the Demonic Forms in the other thread. We shouldn’t be penalized by losing access to feats and weapon skills we have invested in when using a signature ability of the Demon MP

I’m not too concerned with the spells or comparisons to other Mythic Paths as they are not directly competing against each other in a single player game. I would say the priority to is figuring out a better system for the Demonic Forms. I think it is the thing that needs to be fixed for Demon to be enjoyable to play in it’s own right regardless of comparison to other MP. Hopefully that is something that can be managed before release.

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Succubus argument again! :rofl:
She is literally the only one who actively uses charisma and for whom it really makes sense.
And I think you’re confusing Demons and Devils.

Devils are those who focus on charisma, strength of personality and have a silver tongue.
Demons are rather a pure and unfettered force of evil and chaos.

“Charisma measures a character’s personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance.” (Since she’s the only exception, we’ll ignore Succubus)

1) Appearance - More than 90% of demons are absolutely disgusting creatures.
2) Ability to lead - They are chaotic creatures and with a few exceptions at high levels, they are not effective leaders and rely on swarm tactics.
3) Personal magnetism - Again, the only exceptions are the most powerful demons, whose power is such that it attracts lower demons.
4) Personality - Demons are not complex personalities. Power, food and carnage. These are the only things that interest them.

I personally imagine the demon mythic path as the raw dark force of chaos within MC. This power manifests in many ways, but the most obvious is the greatly increased physical strength (and that’s why all demon forms give you large buff to strength, and none give you a bonus to charisma). Therefore, I think that demon should be a strength-oriented caster. However, I do not mean strength as a physical strength, but the inner strength that manifests as a physical strength.

As you may have noticed, right now we don’t have a mythic class that is primarily focused on melee combat (except for an angel, which is incredibly OP, and an unbalanced mythic path that is perfect in everything it does :man_facepalming:). The demon is the closest to this focus, which is completely logical. It only needs to remove a few obstacles so that it can be a good choice for classes such as warrior, bloodrager or barbarian.

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Interesting breakdown, this clearly lists out the gameplay mechanics that make me really hesitate from committing to this Mythic Path despite the compelling story elements. Hopefully, some of these issues will be redressed before the game launches in September but until then I will be wary, and quietly signing this very compelling legal document that has a stench of brimstone about it.
Indeed as Nocticula and her brother Socothbenoth clearly demonstrate, Succubus and Incubi are the exceptions, not the rule.

I don’t believe I am mistaking demons for devils, I just have a different view of how Charisma relates to them.

Ignoring Succubus and Incubus because they are an exception is your choice. I choose to include them as they are forms of demons.

Appearance: Relates to both the physical beauty of more attractive demon types as well as the Intimidation factor for the more monstrous forms. Also demons likely have a different idea of what is beautiful or ugly depending on their type. A physically impressive demon may command respect in the sense of a primal pack leader.

Ability to Lead: Demons are most certainly capable of commanding lesser demons, waging war, forming alliances etc. Even if employing swarm tactics, the swarm still requires the direction of a dominant personality.

Personal Magnetism: I agree absolutely with what you have said here, I just believe it applies to a Demon MP main character.

Personality: I don’t really agree with this. I do agree that these sort of primal urges are driving forces behind a demon’s actions, but I don’t believe they render the demon incapable of complex thought or political ambitions. They are just more likely to pursue a more direct approach to achieve these ends than a devil’s more surreptitious approach.

“It is up to the Demon to decide whether to allow the inner beast to take control, or to fight it, chain it, force it into obedience.”

To me the inner strength that you mention is related to Charisma (personality) rather than the Strength ability score, which in Pathfinder rules measures muscle and physical power.

To each their own!

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The reason Demons are associated with Charisma is pretty simple - Corruption and convincing you to be a worse person are literally the reason why they exist.

Remember, Demons ultimately aren’t here to destroy everything (that’s Daemons) and they don’t want you to sell your soul (like Devils), they just want to convince you to be just as awful and evil as they are. They’re the Outsiders based on the classic ‘seven deadly sins’.

Remember, in actual DND Glabrezu’s are out there tempting people with destructive wishes and Nalfeshnees are all about refined overindulgence.

The fact that the limits of the CRPG mean they show up as just giant, oversize beatsticks doesn’t change the fact that talking to people and convincing them to do things is the heart of the whole demonic ‘thing’.

The fact that Rage is our ‘Demon’ mechanic has everything to do with it being the most palatable aspect of demons to focus on for a ‘ostensibly heroic’ player character in a game that isn’t Adults Only…

That said, I’m not going to spend a lot more time on this particular element - its unlikely to result in any positive game design changes.

@Apshai
What main stat defines DC Superman?
Strength or charisma? Both are definitely his highest stats.

I still feel like you’re having trouble distinguishing between Demons and Devils. The inhabitants of the Abyss are not governed by any order. It would be against the very nature of the Abyss. Demons kill each other until a really strong demon appears, forcing the weaker demons to submit to his will. These powerful demons then kill other powerful demons and form alliances only if it brings them great benefits, or if their existence depends on it.

Devils are those who have a fixed hierarchy, laws and politics.
They are also charismatic, perfectly organized and great leaders.

@KrispyXIV
The fact that Rage is our ‘Demon’ mechanic has everything to do with it being the most palatable aspect of demons to focus on for a ‘ostensibly heroic’ player character in a game that isn’t Adults Only…

I agree with you!
If our demon’s template were lust or pride, charisma would certainly be the best choice.
But we got Wrath, so our abilities should match.

By the way, here are a few examples of demons that have charisma as dump stat.
Charisma is definitely not the primary stat for all demons.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/demon-xenarth-ichor-shark/

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/demon-schir/

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/demon-balban-brute-demon-tohc/

I’m not having any trouble, I am simply disagreeing with your interpretation of the distinction between Demons and Devils.

Lilitu (Charisma 26)
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/demon-lilitu/

Glabrezu (Charisma 20)
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/glabrezu/

Nalfeshnee (Charisma 20)
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/nalfeshnee/

Balor (Charisma 27)
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/balor/

Coloxus (Charisma 23)
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/demon-coloxus/

Galli (Charisma 25)
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/demon-gallu/

I can also cherry pick a bunch of demons to support my point of view, but it isn’t really relevant since this is a difference of a opinion.

I would also note that while most demons are very strong, they also fairly consistently have Charisma as their highest non-physical ability score. Even those that are physically grotesque or monstrous. I would say that their physical combat prowess is rooted in their Strength while their mystical abilities are based in the Abyss empowering their sinful, corrupted personalities (Charisma).

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I agree that there are demons that are based on charisma.
But I don’t agree that ALL demons are based on charisma.

Who cares if all demons are based on charisma or not? We are discussing the main stat for Demon spellcasting. This stat should be mental, since spells scaling off a physical stat makes no sense, and charisma definitely fits better than wisdom or intelligence.That’s it.

4 Likes

So the whole kinetic class doesn’t make sense to you? :grin:
Their main spellcasting stat is constitution…

I’m just saying that having charisma as the main spellcasting stat for a mythic path which is intended for melee classes is counterproductive. The use of physical stat would be much more advantageous for them, and given the nature of the demon’s abilities, it is also easily justifiable.

The problem is having a path indended for martial characters. No other path is built for a specific character archetype. Even Lich and Angel offer very solid powers for martial characters. You say that Demon doesn’t offer martial characters enough and suggest fixing it by making it scale off physical stats. I say that the Demon path should not be tailor-made for martial characters and should offer solid options for all characters, including archers and casters.

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Making the main spellcasting stat non-mental is a massive nerf for anyone that wants to play a Demon as a Bard, Skald, or Sorcerer which are all extremely fitting options for Demon player characters.

If your character is martial to begin with, you don’t need perfect synergy for your secondary spellcasting mechanic.

If I want to play a Demon spellcaster, you ABSOLUTELY need that casting stat to line up.

Ideally, all mythic spellcasting should run off a characters best stat - for all paths. But if it’s going to be a fixed stat for each path, Charisma is 100% correct for Demons.

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@Aluffi_fan
@KrispyXIV

In that case, you should both see a problem in the fact that ALL mythic classes are focused on charisma, wisdom or intelligence. These are all stats for casters. Where are the mythic classes focused on stats for melee classes?

Massive nerf for Bard, Skald, or Sorcerer?
So is it all right that warriors, barbarians and bloodragers have a gigantic nerf in all mythic classes?

In addition, some mythic classes even offer merging spellbooks for casters.
Where is any similar advantage for the melee classes?

Mythic paths were not created as a universal choice for all classes. Some are simply designed for certain classes and disadvantageous for others. Is it really so much to want at least one mythic class that will favor melee classes and physical stats?