Daeran Act 5 quest new choice suggestion [SPOILERS] (and some random ideas)

Act 5 Deciding Daeran’s fate - suggestion for new choice

So I do enjoy the story and character relationships, and I also think that in some cases it is exceptional how much attention was given to detail, but the Daeran quest just irks me because of how unfulfilling it feels with the current choices and the endings tied to them, when there’s so much potential. Especially with the many different type of ability checks and the amount of different choices we have during earlier conversations - be it on the romance path or just friendship.

Bit of a summary of current choices and why they bother me (hidden so this doesn’t become that brutal of a wall of text 😂😅 and also spoilers).
  • kill Daeran (nope nope nope :sob:)
  • Kill Liotr and make Daeran even more evil - With the consequence this just feels like every earlier conversation choice with Daeran goes down the toilet (especially on the romance path), where the Commander might have tried to make him at least a slightly better man, even if just by showing that you can maneuver life and get results with compassion and kindness as well. Also being playfully sarcastic and teasing with him wouldn’t necessarily mean that you want a more evil version. Another thing why this doesn’t sit well with me is because you are forced to kill a guy who has helped you immensely to free Daeran… but compared to the other choices if you really want the guy free you must hop on the evil train.
  • Tribunal - this can go very-very-very bad, like depression inducing bad, or back to square one with Liotr essentially taking the Other’s place. And every effort you put into freeing Daeran so he might have a chance for a better life where he can find a real friend or love in the Commander…. Yeah, into the trash it goes - considering the ending tied to this choice.

Suggestion:
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not against having the current choices. There’s the argument that not everything can be fairytale happy, but again I for one really like to have the opportunity to reach endings varying from very ideal to very sad.

My idea would be to add another choice when deciding Daeran’s fate. It could be behind a medium or high persuasion check, where you can talk Liotr out of taking the case to the tribunal, and promise that you will keep an eye on Daeran - or something along those lines. That way you don’t have to kill anybody and Daeran could be free without spilling Liotr’s blood and corrupting an already evil guy even further in the process. Liotr might accept this out of respect for the Commander, and he could also state that you will be held responsible if anything goes wrong. Well sh*t, you’re already responsible for a lot of things, so might as well pile one more on. :joy:

With a new choice could come a new ending tied to it where Daeran might be more mature but instead of growing colder he could become more of a charismatic guy who still holds entertaining parties, and pokes nobles with his pranks, but his jokes are less cruel. Being truly free without anyone’s blood tainting this freedom could change his idea of happiness and he could rely more on his friends from the crusade - hence not lonely anymore even without the romance part.

Fit with already voice acted lines

As for how this would fit in with the already voice acted lines. Leaving the place Daeran could still say the similar things as when Liotr is killed, just without the remark from the Commander that they killed a man for his freedom. Also on the romance path when Daeran comes to talk in Drezen he could use the same line for the frightened and lonely question as when the tribunal choice is made.

Secret ending

I’m aware that there’s a secret ending that kind of mitigates this issue, since none of these choices matter at all going down that route, but what if some of us just would like to become a Countess/Lord with a freed but at least not more evil than he was before Daeran. :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes: :joy:

That’s about it for the important part, and now a couple ideas from random inspiration strikes while going through the romance path. :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

Conversation about the hidden note

I like the idea that after denying everything Daeran mentions the note during the Nexus date, what bothers me a bit is that there’s no answer on the Commander’s part when Daeran acts like giving you the key and the note is a coincidence. I’m thinking about something small for example:

1.[Smile] Either way, you have a beautiful handwriting. (Continue romance)
Step away while catch a glimpse of slight surprise on his face.
2.[Bluff] Well, into the trash it goes then. (Continue romance)
Smirk slightly while stepping away indicating that you weren’t serious, and you can see the understanding in his eyes.
3.[Tell the truth] Well, into the trash it goes then. (Terminate romance)
Stepping away you can glimpse a slightly hurt expression on his face.

After his denying monologue it would be just nice and funny to have a chance to call his bluff. Or terminate the romance right there if you had enough of the guy’s antics.

Marriage ending (if you go down that route)

I wouldn’t suggest to change the current ending text tied to the romance, but a new paragraph could be added tied to the marriage choice if the Commander agrees to the proposal.

I think it would be just fun to read about how they had a lavish wedding true to Daeran’s style with all their friends there and of course all the jealous nobles who wanted the Count for themselves.

After taking the game to the very end I just love to read all the stories of the companions. For example I really liked the one about Woljif, how he travels with Darean and how they appear in taverns together. I think it’s just heartwarming to have detailed endings for your companions reflecting the choices you made.

I’m aware that these suggestions might be niche, but already having these ideas I decided to write them down. Maybe someone at least will find them amusing if nothing else. :woman_shrugging::sweat_smile: :joy:

5 Likes

I haven’t started Act 6 yet, so haven’t reached the epilogues.

For Daeran’s Act 5 quest, the tribunal said that Daeran was free because of him being with my PC, and due to both my heroine & Liotr putting in a good word for him. Is that what happened with you? I didn’t go for the Ascension ending, but I thought that due to the Tribunal allowing him to walk free then there would be a happy ending for their relationship. I guess that isn’t the case after all? :cry:

Well it is kind of happy…. More like bittersweet I’d say. So there are more paragraphs usually for the ending story of the characters. There is one completely separate paragraph that is tied only to the romantic relationship and is not influenced by other choices. And there is another paragraph for Daeran tied to the choice you make about his fate. That is also influenced by the relationship being positive (including romantic) or negative. Let’s not talk about what happens to him if the Commander doesn’t care, cause that’s what I called depression inducing :sweat_smile:, but when the relationship is friendly or romantic then it is not so bad, but it didn’t really make me feel good either. I don’t want to spoil more details of the epilogue for you, so I’ll put this behind a hidden text box and proceed at your own risk. :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

Epilogue

So what I’ve got as an epilogue with the tribunal choice being in relationship with him was that Darean is actually not locked up, but he is constantly watched by Liotr (hence I said he basically swaps places with the Other). This is the price for him not being locked up. He is not completely free and finds it hard to adjust that new life, because his old life is over.

And of course there is the paragraph about the relationship with the Commander that is kind of cute nonetheless.

Just because of the being completely free aspect I actually preferred the ending after Liotr is killed, but than again that says that Daeran is becoming more evil, which is not the most ideal yet again.

It might be just me who would have liked to see a happier ending than this… :woman_shrugging:
Let me know if you find anything different. :wink:

2 Likes

I played a NG Azata that didn’t romance Daeran. He was a main part of my party so I didn’t want to part with him.

Daeran Act 5 and Secret Ending spoilers

Leading up to the encounter with The Other I treated him well and I presumably chose all the banter/snarky interactions with him so I had a good relationship/rapport with him. Going into the speech/ploy with about how the main character didn’t want anything to do with Daeran any more and the like to get The Other to come out was pretty heartbreaking. Daeran sounded so dejected and he pretty much resigned himself to death as he walked to the podium to be executed.

Post The Other fight, like I said I didn’t want to part with Daeran since he was a main part of my party. He says he would rather die than be put on trial at The Tribunal so I unfortunately chose to kill Liotr instead. It sucks but I think I got some good text from Daeran about it. He says he commends Liotr for being a main of faith worth of respect that was willing to die to give Daeran a chance at redemption. Back at Drezen you both pour out a toast of wine and drink to Liotr’s memory. There’s a bit of a dialogue choice to ask if he’s mocking Liotr/being sarcastic but he says he’s being genuine.

In the Epilogue where I chose to do the secret ending/ascend everyone iirc Daeran is pretty meh about the whole being worshipped idea. There’s some text about how he’s often seen chilling with the MC and the object of many portraits/paintings because of his good looks.

Overall I think it was a relatively good resolution but of course… “not everyone can have a happy ending”.

1 Like

Yeah, I also tried that route just without the ascension ending. As I wrote I both acknowledge the idea of not having a completely happy ending, and the ascension ending essentially canceling out this choice.

I just somehow had a bit of a bad feeling about the ending without the ascension, and I thought something like this could be a relatively easy addition for an actual happy ending route. Putting it behind a persuasion check would also make it a bit harder to access and all the existent choices stay viable.
Well, it’s just an idea of course. :slightly_smiling_face:

2 Likes

Yes … I ended up the same :slight_smile: Liotr ends up watching over Daeran at the end as a “Guardian Inquisitor”. I have made up the backstory that Liotr is actually Daeran’s biological father, and that’s why he is always looking after him :joy: It makes it sound a little less sad!

1 Like

I like that idea! ^^ I myself just tried to ignore that ending, and pretend Daeran was actually free. :joy:

2 Likes

You have written literally everything that I think about the last week! I agree with your every word and sentence! Especially with regard to the uplining of the wedding and the influence of the Commander on Daeran in the epilogue. Thank you for your opinion! I am so agree with you that I want to hug you :broken_heart:

2 Likes

Aaaaw that’s so sweet, thank you!! :heart: I wanna hug you too, it’s great to discover that you’re not alone with your thoughts. :blush:

I actually found a reddit thread not too long ago that is loosely related. People mostly discussing there how hard it is to pick from the current choices and trying to figure out which would lead to the best result.
Some of them even casually mentions that they would like to have other choices ranging in aggression level between telling Litor that “I’ am the law” to telling him to go f*** himself. :joy: But ultimately all leading to the same result that I tried to describe.

I forgot to encourage people in the original post to leave their own ideas, it’d be fun to see what others think. ^^ I might just update this whole post during the weekend. :hugs:

2 Likes

I am surprised by the fact that the game is very variable in the process - you feel that something depends and changes on your decisions. This thrilled me during the game. But the endings negate this - it turns out that in the end there are not many options at all and they seem to be independent of your remarks in communicating with your companions. Especially with romantic interests.

It would be interesting to read the updated post with other opinions!

3 Likes

My issues with the Daeran quest are:
Depending upon your character, it makes no sense whatsoever to hand him to the inquisition. Like there’s no way a chaotic good character would do that imo, and a chaotic neutral only if they hated him. At the same time, you wouldn’t want to kill some random helpful guy just cos they are lawful, which is what it amounts to. You’d try to find a compromise.

Then it’s hypocritical. You yourself have powers of demonic origin and throughout the game, there are instances where you get to resist or give in to demonic rage. Who’s to say you won’t give in to it in the future, so who are you to treat Daeran like he will based on a hypothesis? Why is it fine to use Daeran to save the world but after that he needs the inquisition to at best stalk him, like you are some kind of nasty control freak.

Considering most of the “evil” nature of Daeran seems to be based on the Other, why can’t he shift to neutral once it’s gone, instead of being sent to the inquisition or becoming worse?

At least let people solve the issue by fighting the thing 1:1 and thus circumventing the inquisition.

Finally, I find it contrived and exaggerated when in rpg’s you feel compelled to basically play “for” specific characters to please them or solve their quests properly. That suggests you aren’t respected for who you are as such, just on the basis of whether you go out of your way to be who whoever wants or needs you to be. IRL that’s not how healthy relationships work - it’s a give and take, an acceptance of people as they are and not an itinerary everything you ever did or said which if it’s not always what the other person wanted or expected is then weighted to the point it makes or breaks them. Why can’t they respect you for who you are as long as you are helping each other out and not obviously trying to manipulate them to go against their nature or w/e, without all these exaggerated constraints?

5 Likes

Has anyone tried

romance path + accepting the other into yourself? Curious to know if that would work – you sacrificing yourself for Daerun might be enough to make him change his evil ways.

I tried it, but you have to kill Daeran in order to accept the Other … so I had to reload and choose to kill the Other.

1 Like

Yes I absolutely agree! One of my favorite things about the Pathfinder games (and RPG in general) is that the choices you make along the way matter. It’s already incredible how many different ways you can play the game… it must have been a crazy amount of work to keep everything in check and every decision/path covered.
That said I also feel like the ending is lacking a bit. In some cases it is very detailed, like e.g. on Azata path there is a lot about the free crusaders (some of them even mentioned one-by-one). It’s a bit baffling that companions who supposed to be even one step closer to your character are a bit lackluster. :frowning: I don’t think it is even about preferences of the players, since it’s the easiest thing to just scroll through if someone is not interested in reading lengthy ending stories. Also if you have already ignored a companion their story will be quite short, so you don’t have to read about those who you don’t care about.
Maybe they were running out of time by then… :woman_shrugging: Who knows…

I just found out how to easily edit the already existing texts, so I did it currently only for personal use, but I might release a mod in the future. I haven’t yet figured out the code part to add completely new texts, or to make the texts change dynamically considering the earlier choices, but that would be the next thing. I just started this yesterday afternoon btw, so it’s not a long work in progress yet. :sweat_smile: :smiley:

I’m still behind with the update of this post as well, but I’m so happy to see that more and more people join in on this conversation. :blush:

2 Likes

I actually didn’t even have that choice. o.O I could only choose from accepting reward and letting the Other go, which results in killing the inquisitors and Daeran. Or killing the Other.

Unfortunately the Other basically tells you to behead Daeran in order for you to make the deal to become a gateway for it. :sob:

My main problem with this quest was that it had pretty much no reaction for being in a romance with him. I lied and made it seem like I was ready to turn him into the inquisition, but afterwards there’s no reaction or conversation at all that refers to the romance. I loved the Daeran romance in the previous chapters, but this was one of the many examples of things being rushed/incomplete/missing after chapter 4.

2 Likes

You’re so right! I remember having this exact dilemma with my originally CN character who by that point of the game was constantly shifting between CN and CG. You might be chaotic but on neutral or good path that doesn’t mean you’re a murderer, and it definitely doesn’t mean that you want one of your companions handed over to the inquisition with the prospect of essentially being imprisoned. On top of that if the character is on Azata mythic path (which mine was on) then yet again: none of the choices make sense. You wouldn’t take someone’s freedom willingly but you wouldn’t kill someone for being lawful (as you pointed out) either…

It does feel quite hypocritical when you put it that way.

It’s interesting that Daeran’s alignment can only shift for the worse. When you are not in a good enough relationship with him, and decide to hand him over to the Tribunal, he can shift to CE. Even though true neutral would make perfect sense if the Commander shows care for him, and helps him get rid of the Other. Maybe not immediately but just sneak in the change somewhere during chapter 5.

That’s a valid point too… Actually I feel like I was more able to stay true to myself and still get a good relationship with almost everyone than back in Kingmaker, so that’s great. My issue lies more in the fact that even though e.g. you can be more on the good side and still have a good relationship / romance with Daeran, it feels all quite cancelled out by this particular quest, where your choices are very limited.

2 Likes

Well then… that wouldn’t be the choice for me anyway… :sob:

1 Like

I wonder whether anybody actually chose that route, and whether there is an epilogue for it?

2 Likes